So what are they doing?

[Jay Random]

At this point in his career, Kessel is a top-six player on a bad team. A good team can't really afford to give a prime roster spot to someone that one-dimensional unless that one dimension is off-the-charts good, and Kessel just hasn't been there for a while.

[Ashasx]

Didn't Meier just sign a massive contract with SJ? How is he a target?

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Didn't Meier just sign a massive contract with SJ? How is he a target?

That was Hertl

New GM, could be open for business. They did just trade Burns.

Just taking a look at cap strapped teams or bottom feeders for top six options.

[Ashasx]

I'm an idiot

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I'm an idiot

No I originally thought it was Mier too until I looked.

[really?]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I'm an idiot

The fact that you acknowledge a minor oversight disqualifies you from being an idiot. One of the bright lights.

[greentree]

Trade Tkachuk now, his value will never be higher.
As things now stand this team is not a contender. Need another top 2 centreman and dman.
Accept the 2-3 years playoff drought. Leverage Tkachuk.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by really?

The fact that you acknowledge a minor oversight disqualifies you from being an idiot. One of the bright lights.

Hey, I've acknowledged minor oversights, and I'm still an idiot!

[SebC]

Originally Posted by blankall

Based on what I saw last year, Gaudreau was a pretty key part of most offensive output. Maybe that was a bad thing, and the team was just relying on him too much. If other guys step up more, maybe they could, as you say be legit 1st line players in their own right. Guys like Tkachuk and Mangiapane are certainly a lot tougher to play against and more willing to go to the corners than Gaudreau.

Personally, I still think the Flames will flounder a lot next season without Gaudreau, but who knows.

I agree that Gaudreau was helping Tkachuk especially produce. It would take a large degree of individual improvement from him just to maintain his production. I wouldn't bet on it, but he's young enough that it could happen.

Mangiapane on the other hand I expect to take on a larger role, especially on the power play, but could suffer from tougher competition at even strength. He has a better chance to improve his stats.

[bubbsy]

I am very curious to know what Lindholm is without gaudreau, and maybe tkachuk. I know he's a smart, 2 way player, but his only big offensive output seasons were playing with an elite playmaker in gaudreau.

I know his contract is amazing, but I also feel that he could bring in a true franchise changing haul right now, coming off the season he just had, which he may not ever repeat.

Would the flames even entertain that kind of move, especially if tkachuk isn't here long-term?

[dammage79]

Okay, this is getting out of hand. Gaudreau was not the only player on the ice and his teammates weren't lucky to just have him grace the ice the same time as him. Gaudreaus success was also equal parts to the absolute quality of his line mates as well.

I've been reading for days now how our players are just going to suck because water bug baby Jesus isn't here any longer.

Eff that. Eff that line of thought and straighten yourselves out. I get it, bummed out he's gone is an understatement, but eff anyone who thinks the likes of Lindholm and Tkachuk were just lucky to be there and recieve blessed pucks from Gaudreau.

[Roof-Daddy]

I thought this team was doomed last season because their D on paper looked like well below par, especially with the departure of Gio. But guys stepped up, took on bigger roles and they got the job done by committee.

Hopefully we see that with the forward group this next season.

I expect Vegas to be better if they are healthy
I expect Van to be better with a full year of Boudreau
Kings will likely continue to improve

It's going to be a tough battle

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

I am very curious to know what Lindholm is without gaudreau, and maybe tkachuk. I know he's a smart, 2 way player, but his only big offensive output seasons were playing with an elite playmaker in gaudreau.

I know his contract is amazing, but I also feel that he could bring in a true franchise changing haul right now, coming off the season he just had, which he may not ever repeat.

Would the flames even entertain that kind of move, especially if tkachuk isn't here long-term?

Before Tkachuk played with Lindholm and Gaudreau, there was a time where the Tkachuk - Lindholm - Mangiapane line went off. And I think they would again. We may not have our best playmaker anymore but we still have Tkachuk who put up 60 assists. He will have shoot-first flanking Mangiapane and Lindholm who still has a deadly shot. Tkachuk might not score 40 ever again in Calgary but he will still be able to hit 60 assists with Lindholm and Mangiapane.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I'm an idiot

I always get Meier and Hertl mixed up as well. Don't know why.
You're not alone.

[blankall]

The thing about a rebuild is that the Flames have most of the other parts, but are now missing a top forward. There will likely be growth from within, Hanifin, Lindholm, Tkachuk, Kylington, Andersson, and Mangiapane are all still at the age where they are getting better. The Flames do have some very solid prospects for depth. Guys like Pelletier, Zary, Ruszicka, and Coronato all look like potential middle six players, who could be there as early as this season. The value of having guys like that step into depth positions is massive.

Next off season, Monahan and Lucic are off the books, and the cap is likely to finally start rising again. The Flames will have everyone locked up and they'll likely be a lot of big UFAs on the market: Kane, Tarasenko, Pastrnak, MacKinnon, Huberdeau, Larkin, Meier, Horvat, and Miller. Of those guys, I see only MacKinnon as likely to stay with his team. This will be the first time since 2019 that teams will be opening up the vault to sign UFAs, players will want to hit the market.

The wild card here is really the Tkachuk contract. Firstly, is the return going to be massive now vs. at the deadline? Probably not, Tkachuk not signing in Calgary signals that he wants to test the UFA market or already has another destination in mind. The other risk is if the Flames do sign him to a big contract ($10 x 8 years) and then his play drops off, does Tkachuk's value then tank again? Probably, but not any worse than just trading him without a contract. So signing Tkachuk is the right move from an owner's perspective.

From Tkachuk's perspective, signing the contract right now is probably the right move too. Coming off a massive year that he may not repeat. The Flames kind of have their pants down and are under pressure to sign Tkachuk. Tkachuk knows that push comes to shove, the Flames will cough up $10.5 x 8 years. So it's time for him to cash in. He can always force the trade later if he really wants out. He's exactly the type of personality type to bring down the locker room until he gets his way with a trade. Does not really care what people think, and totally willing to walk into a dressing room that hates him with a massive grin on his face.

So I think Tkachuk signs. Maybe it's not even all that much of a wild card and more of a certainty.

Basically, the only plan I see is for the Flames to push forward this season and see what they have minus-Gaudreau. If there is indeed improvement, you make that UFA splash, and probably end up with a better team than we had this season. The dream is Huberdeau (who I definitely see leaving Florida), but throwing money at Tarasenko or Pastrnak would be almost as solid.

If the team is just awful, you consider tearing it down, and waiting that extra year, really doesn't put us in any worse of a position. Possibly better, as you can give guys like Coleman and Toffoli the showcase treatment before trading them at the deadline. Next year's draft is also much better than 2022. If the team really is nowhere near being a competitor, Coleman, Toffoli, Markstrom, Lindholm, Backlund, and Tanev should all get moved for big hauls at the deadline. These are exactly the types of players teams want for playoff drives.

Honestly, the Flames are not in an awful position and have the perfect timeline to finalize the plan long-term.

[442scotty]

I think the whole organization is going to be in shock for a bit…. It’s going to take a while for everything to settle down and function smoothly again. This too shall pass.

[Jore]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

I am very curious to know what Lindholm is without gaudreau, and maybe tkachuk. I know he's a smart, 2 way player, but his only big offensive output seasons were playing with an elite playmaker in gaudreau.

I know his contract is amazing, but I also feel that he could bring in a true franchise changing haul right now, coming off the season he just had, which he may not ever repeat.

Would the flames even entertain that kind of move, especially if tkachuk isn't here long-term?

They should be entertaining that move (and in fact should have been entertaining it this whole summer) but based on how the organization likes to 'spend all its calories' doing one thing at a time, I doubt they are exploring his value around the league

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I thought this team was doomed last season because their D on paper looked like well below par, especially with the departure of Gio. But guys stepped up, took on bigger roles and they got the job done by committee.

Hopefully we see that with the forward group this next season.

I expect Vegas to be better if they are healthy
I expect Van to be better with a full year of Boudreau
Kings will likely continue to improve

It's going to be a tough battle

Yeah, the D was looking bad but they figured it out. Sutter is good at getting good combinations (though he never quite figured out Toffoli). You get surprises like Zadorov in a season. There's a possibility Monahan recovers enough to make a solid contribution as a 3C or a winger. That would help a lot.

I'm not sure about Vegas or Vancouver though. I'm still not sold on Boudreau, Van's going to be shedding some decent players, their room seems unhappy. Vegas has lost patches to pay a guy they already had, and their goaltending situation is iffy. I'm not sure of their cohesion either. And who knows what Eichel will do. Maybe the mainstream medical opinion was right.

[Monahammer]

I am in the sell everything possible mood. I've thought about it a lot, but I think the timing has truly never been better and this might just have been a big enough blow to ownership ego that they'll suffer the tear down.

We have three pieces of EXTREME value, IMO:
- Tkachuk: Might be the most valuable individual player theoretically available in the last several seasons. Value is really only limited by his potential ability to leave after a single season, but if the trade is positioned well then it shouldn't hurt the value too much.
- Markstrom: Obviously a Vezina candidate who is showing no signs of losing consistency is going to be a valuable trade piece. Signed for 4 more years at 6 million. Has an NMC, so we would have to work with him to find a landing spot, which will affect value but still should earn us some excellent pieces.
- Lindholm: It would suck to see Lindy leave, but as has been mentioned many times through the thread, his value might be at the highest it will ever be; multiple ppg seasons with Gaudreau after prior middling offensive numbers, great 2 way play and an excellent contract for a couple more years. A contender would very likely pay dearly for his services. I'd eye washington for example.

Between those three I would expect at least 2 1st round picks in 2023, and 2 blue chip prospects.

Next tier we have:

Tanev: I would almost put Tanev in the top category. He is extremely well respected league wide, has a great contract for the next 2 years still, and largely has remained consistently healthy. A contender will trade us a premium asset for this player.

Hanifin: a little more tricky, have to convince someone there's still untapped potential. I don't personally believe this any longer but someone might still.

Coleman: I think we probably keep coleman, but if he comes asking about a trade you indulge him.

Backlund: This is someone you work with to find a good fit on a contender. As a favor for good service, and to extract remaining value. Thanks Backs, but we are headed for the cellar and you could still be useful to someone.

Toffoli: Someone will take a flyer and we can recoup some assets here. Still retains similar value to when we acquired him.

I think between these guys we can score 1 more 1st (maybe a 2024 though as 2023 is premium) and a couple of other former 1st round prospects.

I would keep Andersson, Mangiapane, Kylington as guys that grew through the org and AHL. Monahan keep until value improves. Zadorov obviously.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I am in the sell everything possible mood. I've thought about it a lot, but I think the timing has truly never been better and this might just have been a big enough blow to ownership ego that they'll suffer the tear down.

We have three pieces of EXTREME value, IMO:
- Tkachuk: Might be the most valuable individual player theoretically available in the last several seasons. Value is really only limited by his potential ability to leave after a single season, but if the trade is positioned well then it shouldn't hurt the value too much.
- Markstrom: Obviously a Vezina candidate who is showing no signs of losing consistency is going to be a valuable trade piece. Signed for 4 more years at 6 million. Has an NMC, so we would have to work with him to find a landing spot, which will affect value but still should earn us some excellent pieces.
- Lindholm: It would suck to see Lindy leave, but as has been mentioned many times through the thread, his value might be at the highest it will ever be; multiple ppg seasons with Gaudreau after prior middling offensive numbers, great 2 way play and an excellent contract for a couple more years. A contender would very likely pay dearly for his services. I'd eye washington for example.

Between those three I would expect at least 2 1st round picks in 2023, and 2 blue chip prospects.

Next tier we have:

Tanev: I would almost put Tanev in the top category. He is extremely well respected league wide, has a great contract for the next 2 years still, and largely has remained consistently healthy. A contender will trade us a premium asset for this player.

Hanifin: a little more tricky, have to convince someone there's still untapped potential. I don't personally believe this any longer but someone might still.

Coleman: I think we probably keep coleman, but if he comes asking about a trade you indulge him.

Backlund: This is someone you work with to find a good fit on a contender. As a favor for good service, and to extract remaining value. Thanks Backs, but we are headed for the cellar and you could still be useful to someone.

Toffoli: Someone will take a flyer and we can recoup some assets here. Still retains similar value to when we acquired him.

I think between these guys we can score 1 more 1st (maybe a 2024 though as 2023 is premium) and a couple of other former 1st round prospects.

I would keep Andersson, Mangiapane, Kylington as guys that grew through the org and AHL. Monahan keep until value improves. Zadorov obviously.

This is all well and good but what teams are trading their 2023 firsts that have salary cap space and are not rebuilding? To tear this team down to the studs enough to compete for 1st overall is going to be extremely complicated as this team is still very good even minus Johnny. They won the division last year. There just isn't enough potential buyers at the moment I feel.