If You Could Undo One Treliving Move & Replace it With A Similar One

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Reaper

Has Perron ever signed an NHL contract for any team but the Blues? Even after being traded he still went back to the Blues as a free agent. I'm not sure this deal would have been possible as it appears that he wants to be a Blue for life.

It's true - he's only signed contracts with the Blues despite playing for 5 different teams.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Exactly right. And by this logic, the very best chance for a team to win a Cup is to hire a coach who has never won before. It's nonsense, but I think thus speaks more to just how difficult and random a championship win truly is.

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Yup, it's not a factoid to plan your franchise around considering it's a pretty small sample size, but cup-winning coaches tend to go on to other good jobs (Bylsma the biggest exception).

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

There is also a crazy little factoid that only Dick Irvine and Scotty Bowman have won Cups with 2+ different teams.

Maybe but Sutter has added stability and the Flames play has been much improved. Not sure if your point is to defend Trelivings prior coaching hires or to imply that Sutter can't get this team further than the previous coaches and win another cup? Certainly it is not slam dunk for any team as a lot of factors come into play including, goaltending skill and good coaching. Some contend that Trelivings coaching hires set the team back and I tend to agree with this. He said so himself that; "we need Darryl".

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Trade Johnny and Chucky before we lose them for nothing.

Not only is this not relevant to the thread, it’s pretty stupid. Johnny is re-signing here most likely, and Tkachuk is also likely to be back.

[Classic_Sniper]

There’s quite a bit on the menu, but the James Neal acquisition stands above the rest.

It was a disaster from the beginning and he had to be promptly removed from the team just to get him off the team, even if it meant acquiring one of the worst, buyout proof contracts in the league.

For the record, I like Lucic and he certainly brings more to the table than James Neal. But his contract is an absolute abomination.

Ultimately, the $5M+ takes away a lot of what the Flames can and cannot do in terms of cap flexibility. Depth appears to be very important to Treliving and his group, so for $5M+ and $6M+ (Monahan) to be eaten up by 2 bottom 6 forwards, that has to hurt their soul to think about.


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[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

There’s quite a bit on the menu, but the James Neal acquisition stands above the rest.

It was a disaster from the beginning and he had to be promptly removed from the team just to get him off the team, even if it meant acquiring one of the worst, buyout proof contracts in the league.

For the record, I like Lucic and he certainly brings more to the table than James Neal. But his contract is an absolute abomination.

Ultimately, the $5M+ takes away a lot of what the Flames can and cannot do in terms of cap flexibility. Depth appears to be very important to Treliving and his group, so for $5M+ and $6M+ (Monahan) to be eaten up by 2 bottom 6 forwards, that has to hurt their soul to think about.


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Not sure how spending 5.25M in cap space for 4 of the 5 years and adding a 3rd round pick is worse than spending a 12th overall selection and 2 2nd rounders on a bottom pairing Dman who played 5 playoff games for the franchise in 3 seasons.

Neal was a disastrous signing but cost only cap space. Hamonic was brought in at the cost of a top 3 Dman and played like a bottom pairing guy. Brodie became a whipping boy and once he is moved back to Gio he was a key player again. Hanifin was not living up to potential and in the 2 years since Hamonic left he has taken massive steps forward with Tanev and now Anderson

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Not sure how spending 5.25M in cap space for 4 of the 5 years and adding a 3rd round pick is worse than spending a 12th overall selection and 2 2nd rounders on a bottom pairing Dman who played 5 playoff games for the franchise in 3 seasons.

Neal was a disastrous signing but cost only cap space. Hamonic was brought in at the cost of a top 3 Dman and played like a bottom pairing guy. Brodie became a whipping boy and once he is moved back to Gio he was a key player again. Hanifin was not living up to potential and in the 2 years since Hamonic left he has taken massive steps forward with Tanev and now Anderson

You make a solid case, you win.

[Oil Stain]

The guy has done a pretty good job for the most part.

Ideally he would have passed on the Neal contract. Also, he should have bought out the Neal contract instead of trading it for a worse contract in Lucic. If the Flames had an extra $3-4 million to play with last season they could have made a serious upgrade for their playoff run.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

The guy has done a pretty good job for the most part.

Ideally he would have passed on the Neal contract. Also, he should have bought out the Neal contract instead of trading it for a worse contract in Lucic. If the Flames had an extra $3-4 million to play with last season they could have made a serious upgrade for their playoff run.

Not sure I'd be happy with $1.92M on the books for 8 straight years as a cap hit from the buy out.

Better to get the Oilers to pay 13% of it and have a useful player on the roster for half that time frame.

Only one more year to go now.

Lucic is a fourth liner now for sure, with some leadership and physical intangibles, but at $5.25 I don't think he's been over paid by more than what $2M maybe $2.5M?

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

The guy has done a pretty good job for the most part.

Ideally he would have passed on the Neal contract. Also, he should have bought out the Neal contract instead of trading it for a worse contract in Lucic. If the Flames had an extra $3-4 million to play with last season they could have made a serious upgrade for their playoff run.

The Flames also saved a ton of actual cash from the trade.

That actually made a difference to how much money the Flames had to spend, as they may not have been allowed (internally) to spend to the cap if they bought out the Neal contract. This was one case where actual dollars may have been as important as cap dollars.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Not sure I'd be happy with $1.92M on the books for 8 straight years as a cap hit from the buy out.

Better to get the Oilers to pay 13% of it and have a useful player on the roster for half that time frame.

Only one more year to go now.

Lucic is a fourth liner now for sure, with some leadership and physical intangibles, but at $5.25 I don't think he's been over paid by more than what $2M maybe $2.5M?

The $2 million in dead hit last two years longer than Lucic's actual contract.

When you look at it like 8 years of minor cap penalty vs 6 years of major cap penalty I lean towards the 8 years.

Lucic scored 1 goal in his last 40ish regular season and playoff games last season. He scored a bit earlier in the year but he was also getting ice time with Mangiapane and PP time. He likely wouldn't have gotten those opportunities if the Flames weren't trying to salvage the contract IMO.

I would make the argument that Lucic's on-ice play was worth about a million dollars give or take.

I don't think the intangibles of Lucic's leadership and face punching are worth millions per year. Oilers fans have tried to make the same argument with Duncan Keith and I don't buy it there either.

If Treliving gets out of the Lucic contract this summer, that would be a great move for the Flames. And at the end of the day Treliving hasn't made a lot of blunders. UFA signings are iffy at the best of times and if those are his biggest mistakes thats a good spot to be in.

[Jore]

Like many have said, it's between the coaching hires, the Hamonic trade, the Brouwer signing, and the Neal signing. Just completely torpedoing the most competitive years of this core with a mixture of dreadful pro scouting and cap allocation.

Also some big non-moves that might have pushed this group over the top. Stone is one, and Valimaki is making it look like a poor judgement in hindsight. Eichel?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

The $2 million in dead hit last two years longer than Lucic's actual contract.

When you look at it like 8 years of minor cap penalty vs 6 years of major cap penalty I lean towards the 8 years.

Lucic scored 1 goal in his last 40ish regular season and playoff games last season. He scored a bit earlier in the year but he was also getting ice time with Mangiapane and PP time. He likely wouldn't have gotten those opportunities if the Flames weren't trying to salvage the contract IMO.

I would make the argument that Lucic's on-ice play was worth about a million dollars give or take.

I don't think the intangibles of Lucic's leadership and face punching are worth millions per year. Oilers fans have tried to make the same argument with Duncan Keith and I don't buy it there either.

If Treliving gets out of the Lucic contract this summer, that would be a great move for the Flames. And at the end of the day Treliving hasn't made a lot of blunders. UFA signings are iffy at the best of times and if those are his biggest mistakes thats a good spot to be in.

The dead money is 2 years longer because the Oil kept Neal for 2 years before buying him out. The Flames might have kept him for 1 more year but they wouldn’t have been able to eat another year like the Oilers did especially if he didn’t have the goal explosion here like he did in year one in Edmonton. For the Flames it was buying him out right away. He wanted out and the team wanted him gone.

Flames have Lucic for 4 years not 6. He was solid in the Canadian division, in the bubble and to start this year but the guy is done.

One way to look at it: Flames pay 5.25M for Lucic
Oilers pay 3.2M for Kassian, 1.9M for Neal, 750k for Lucic eating up 5.85M in cap space.

[PuckSlap]

Originally Posted by Southside403

With out that trade the legendary Matt stajan goal and he has become a great person in our community.

I don’t mean to sound like a jerk. But who the hell cares?

I would much rather be closer to a Stanley cup

[PuckSlap]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

...

Draft Brayden Point instead of Hunter Smith or Brandon Hickey

Oh ya.. hunter smith. Jesus Christ I forgot about that

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jore

Like many have said, it's between the coaching hires, the Hamonic trade, the Brouwer signing, and the Neal signing. Just completely torpedoing the most competitive years of this core with a mixture of dreadful pro scouting and cap allocation.

Also some big non-moves that might have pushed this group over the top. Stone is one, and Valimaki is making it look like a poor judgement in hindsight. Eichel?

Stone wasn’t necessarily signing here and he is starting to look like a brutal contract for Vegas with his injuries.

The biggest bullet dodged by the org was the rumored Taylor Hall trade pre-pandemic where he needed to sign an extension. Likely a 9.5-10M player and that would have totally screwed the team.

I think the Brouwer signing was a poor choice as the team likely wasn’t ready to contend at the time and he came here to retire. When the Flames signed Neal I admittedly liked it because they lacked a top 6 forward. Horrible in hindsight but coming in off 2 straight finals runs and 10 years of scoring at least 20 gave me hope we would get 3 good years out of that deal. Definitely wrong

[Roof-Daddy]

Hunter Smith wasn't Treliving.

That selection had Burkie written all over it.

Tre was just hired, and IIRC was not allowed to participate in the draft because he was allowed to be hired away from the Yotes and that was a condition of the hire.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Exactly right. And by this logic, the very best chance for a team to win a Cup is to hire a coach who has never won before. It's nonsense, but I think this speaks more to just how difficult and random a championship win truly is.

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That's literally the opposite of logic. That's denial of the antecedent, a logical fallacy.

(Edit, just to be clear, I'm agreeing with you. Also, it may be affirmative conclusion from a negative premise, not denial of the antecedent, but it takes the form of an "ought" statement so it's a bit of a hard one to categorize. In any event, it's bad logic.)

[Jore]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Stone wasn’t necessarily signing here and he is starting to look like a brutal contract for Vegas with his injuries.

The biggest bullet dodged by the org was the rumored Taylor Hall trade pre-pandemic where he needed to sign an extension. Likely a 9.5-10M player and that would have totally screwed the team.

I think the Brouwer signing was a poor choice as the team likely wasn’t ready to contend at the time and he came here to retire. When the Flames signed Neal I admittedly liked it because they lacked a top 6 forward. Horrible in hindsight but coming in off 2 straight finals runs and 10 years of scoring at least 20 gave me hope we would get 3 good years out of that deal. Definitely wrong

According to Friedman, the Flames were confident that he would sign but Treliving didn't want to include Valimaki in the trade. https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...e-sweepstakes/

And there's no way to know how Stone's injuries would have played out here. As it stands it was a huge missed opportunity to acquire some real game-breaking talent because of a mistake in assessing your own talent, though it's true that part of what ailed Valimaki here was injury.

It's true that the team needed a top 6 FWD, but how does hockey ops settle on Neal? Completely abysmal pro scouting.

[GioforPM]

^^ Stone had been given permission to talk to teams. But he refused to talk to Calgary (and the Jets and one other team). The only team he went to to talk to was Vegas. No one had any confidence he’d extend here. It would have been a huge price for a rental.