Australian Racial Violence?!?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

I'd love to spend hours debating this with you, but I (very seriously) equate it to trying to explain to a white supremecist why blacks should be equal to whites. Distasteful, and not my responsibility. That's the nice thing about 'democracy', you're allowed to be as irrationally bigoted as you want!

I'm not sure what more I can add to the debate than I've already said above.

If you choose not to respect other cultures around the planet, that's your call. I asked you for 'proof' of Western Cultural Superiority, you gave the following;

Western culture is more developed, wealthy and most importantly - enjoys higher degree of freedom. It is not perfect (thanks to socialists like yourself), but is in fabric of western culture, whether collectivists like it or not.

This isn't proof, it's opinion. And, seeing _none_ backing you up, and lots coming out against you, it's a very, very minority opinion.

This reminds me of an Anarcho-Capitalist thread

edit: also, I'd go so far as to suggest that IF Western Culture is, indeed, superior (ugh), wouldn't a central tenant of that be Democracy?? You come out against Democracy in your SIG!!! Hilarious!

[@theCBE]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

I asked you if you know how _islamic law_ treats women and infidels. And now I am asking you that again. No response so far.

You keep asking about Islamic law and how it treats women, but you yourself haven't given anything but vague generalizations about what Islamic Law states, only that it disrespects women. The term Islamic Law itself can have a 101 different definitions, depending on which Muslim you talk to, where he/she is from, who has taught them about their faith, what facet of Islam they choose to follow. What is your interpretation of Islamic law??? The reason you aren't getting an answer is because there isn't one. Hard-line fundamentalists might CLAIM there is an Islamic Law, a set of rules that every true Muslim should follow, but that’s not the case. Most Muslims are capable of telling what is right from wrong, they are able to read the Quran and understand it and respect it without taking a passage or a line from it and interpreting as a message that they should wage a war on everyone else. All Muslims follow the Quran as their wholly book, but not all of them have the same interpretation of how is says to live your life and that is the point you are not getting.

Are you basing what you know about Islam and its practices on what you have seen in Afghanistan? Because I think we have established that things there got pretty ****ed up due to a fanatic Muslim cell (taliban) and that is NOT an accurate representation of a faith practiced by over a billion people worldwide.

Have you actually met a Muslim that has referred to someone else and an Infidel???? It’s a catchphrase, besides clips of the taliban on T.V. and actors playing terrorists in movies and TV shows who the hell even uses this word?

Have you talked to a Muslim woman? Maybe one wearing a Hijab? Do you assume just because a woman is covering every part of her body except her face that she is doing it because she is forced into it? Next time you see a Muslim woman ask her if she is wearing the hijab by choice or because she is forced. Maybe if you took the time to understand some of the reasons and tradition that surround some of these practices toward women that you feel oppressive you might find they are not as bad as you think. I don't know if you go to school or live in Calgary, but it isn't hard to find Muslim women in their hijabs on any campus. Do they look oppressed to you, in a place of higher learning? Would a father trying to stifle his daughters freedom an rights allow her to attend place that inspires creativity and free thinking, and gives her the tools to make the most of her self? If you go to university and your school has a Muslim awareness week, like the two major Alberta universities do, stop by their booth and pick up a pamphlet. Talk to the person at the booth, you might learn something.

I'm not saying some women in Islam aren't oppressed and treated badly, because in some cases they are and it has been documented. But assuming that Islam as a whole disrespects women is stupid. Many sects of Islamic faith respect and revere women and treat them as sacred.

Open your eyes; there are a lot of great and positive things about Islam, just as there are about the Christian and Jewish faiths. Its up to you if you choose to see them

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by transplant99

In response though...I would say that in the entire country of Afghanistan, before it was liberated from the Taliban, women couldn't show their faces in public, they couldn't vote, they couldn't work and were treated like chattel by the hardcore element of the Muslim fanatics.

Women not showing their faces isn't always (or mostly) because they aren't allowed to. It's a choice.

I worked in Yemen, with young ladies who had no issues with how they were 'forced' (not!) to dress.

As for women working and voting, how long ago did women receive the right to vote in Canada, the US and Britain? How long ago was it unacceptable for a 'decent' woman to have a job?

[Jayems]

I've always believed to be tollerant of others culture, except when they try to impose their culture and beliefs upon all others, as "outsiders" to the current culture.

Ex.

Why do we have to take the church out of state and school, because "outsiders" to this country deem it unconstitutional and against their beliefs. (Sounds american, but im getting at Canada here).

Im not getting into that, im just using that as an example. Take it for that and nothing else.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Jayems

I've always believed to be tollerant of others culture, except when they try to impose their culture and beliefs upon all others, as "outsiders" to the current culture.

Ex.

Why do we have to take the church out of state and school, because "outsiders" to this country deem it unconstitutional and against their beliefs. (Sounds american, but im getting at Canada here).

Im not getting into that, im just using that as an example. Take it for that and nothing else.

What would you consider an "insider"?

I think you are going to have to back-up the statement "outsiders to this country deem it unconstitutional and against their beliefs" and that's why we don't have church in the state and in the schools.

Good luck.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Jayems

I've always believed to be tollerant of others culture, except when they try to impose their culture and beliefs upon all others, as "outsiders" to the current culture.

Ex.

Why do we have to take the church out of state and school, because "outsiders" to this country deem it unconstitutional and against their beliefs. (Sounds american, but im getting at Canada here).

Im not getting into that, im just using that as an example. Take it for that and nothing else.

So... an immigrant (who I assume you're referring to by 'outsiders')to Canada who is granted Canadian citizenship, and works their whole lives here (and pays taxes), is less of a "Canadian" then the 'rest of us'? Why? Because they're not white-Christians? Is that what a real 'Canadian' is?

Your statement appears to say that intolerance comes from minority groups who can't accept the majority's wishes? That's a bit of a twist on the definition of 'intolerant'.

[Incinerator]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

So... an immigrant (who I assume you're referring to by 'outsiders')to Canada who is granted Canadian citizenship, and works their whole lives here (and pays taxes), is less of a "Canadian" then the 'rest of us'? Why? Because they're not white-Christians? Is that what a real 'Canadian' is?

Your statement appears to say that intolerance comes from minority groups who can't accept the majority's wishes? That's a bit of a twist on the definition of 'intolerant'.

You're completely missing his point, he already qualified what he defined as an "outsider" (people who remain closely guarded in their customs and culture, refusing to merge with the mainstream Canadian society, then cry foul when mainstream Canadians' way of life interfere with theirs.)

I can't stand people like that either, if you choose to live in this country, be a contributing citizen, multicultualism isn't about moving your entire way of life here and act like this is just a piece of land for you to continue to live like you're in Sudan, France, China, Italy, or wherever you come from, and then expecting everyone else to accomodate YOUR way of life in this country. If YOU immigrated here it is YOUR responsibility to fit in, not the other way around. And if you refuse to step out of your cultural clique and learn the language of the nation where you live and work, don't bitch about discrimination or start calling people racists when you can't get a job, or the bank teller can't understand what you want and proceed to help the next customer. It's common sense.

By the way, The immigrant you just described above in your post, that's me to a T. I have no beef with what Jayems said above, and I do agree with you that people who think like how you just described are ignorant.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Incinerator

You're completely missing his point, he already qualified what he defined as an "outsider" (people who remain closely guarded in their customs and culture, refusing to merge with the mainstream Canadian society, then cry foul when mainstream Canadians' way of life interfere with theirs.)

Fair enough. But I don't think I'm 'completely missing his point', his definition of an 'outsider', and an immigrant, seem pretty darn close to the same. In fact, it appears as though he's talking about all immigrants who don't completely buy in to the "Canadian" lifestyle/culture... whatever that is. Drinking coffee at Tim Horton's?

I can't stand people like that either, if you choose to live in this country, be a contributing citizen, multicultualism isn't about moving your entire way of life here and act like this is just a piece of land for you to continue to live like you're in Sudan, France, China, Italy, or wherever you come from, and then expecting everyone else to accomodate YOUR way of life in this country. If YOU immigrated here it is YOUR responsibility to fit in, not the other way around. And if you refuse to step out of your cultural clique and learn the language of the nation where you live and work, don't bitch about discrimination or start calling people racists when you can't get a job, or the bank teller can't understand what you want and proceed to help the next customer. It's common sense.

So... If a Sudanese family moves here, speaks Sudanese, lives/plays with/and is a part of the Sudanese community, then they're not living up to their 'responsibility' to completely assimiliate to "Canadian culture"?

Are any of these 'outsiders' that he speaks of not immigrants? Otherwise... I don't think I'm missing his point. There were a bunch of Ukrainians that moved out to the prairie provinces, many of whom spoke no English and kept up their Ukrainian culture. Now it's a celebrated part of those regions of Western Canada. Were they guilty of not assimiliating? Or is it these very differences between peoples that is a defining part of Canadian Identity?

There's an email floating around out there called "The Right to Leave" that my (arch-Conservative) grandparents sent me. I think it sums up his position fairly well. You can find it under a quick Google search, I believe it was written shortly after 9/11 by an American, but it's been modified to be for several countries, including Canada.

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

So... an immigrant (who I assume you're referring to by 'outsiders')to Canada who is granted Canadian citizenship, and works their whole lives here (and pays taxes), is less of a "Canadian" then the 'rest of us'? Why? Because they're not white-Christians? Is that what a real 'Canadian' is?

Your statement appears to say that intolerance comes from minority groups who can't accept the majority's wishes? That's a bit of a twist on the definition of 'intolerant'.

I'm an immigrant. And who the hell said anything about race?

How about you read this,

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...n1127684.shtml

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

What would you consider an "insider"?

I think you are going to have to back-up the statement "outsiders to this country deem it unconstitutional and against their beliefs" and that's why we don't have church in the state and in the schools.

Good luck.

If you soon learn how to read, go back a step an see that part that says:

"This is an example. Thats all it is, don't look into it more than that"

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by Incinerator

You're completely missing his point, he already qualified what he defined as an "outsider" (people who remain closely guarded in their customs and culture, refusing to merge with the mainstream Canadian society, then cry foul when mainstream Canadians' way of life interfere with theirs.)

I can't stand people like that either, if you choose to live in this country, be a contributing citizen, multicultualism isn't about moving your entire way of life here and act like this is just a piece of land for you to continue to live like you're in Sudan, France, China, Italy, or wherever you come from, and then expecting everyone else to accomodate YOUR way of life in this country. If YOU immigrated here it is YOUR responsibility to fit in, not the other way around. And if you refuse to step out of your cultural clique and learn the language of the nation where you live and work, don't bitch about discrimination or start calling people racists when you can't get a job, or the bank teller can't understand what you want and proceed to help the next customer. It's common sense.

By the way, The immigrant you just described above in your post, that's me to a T. I have no beef with what Jayems said above, and I do agree with you that people who think like how you just described are ignorant.

I honestly could not have said it any better than that.

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Fair enough. But I don't think I'm 'completely missing his point', his definition of an 'outsider', and an immigrant, seem pretty darn close to the same. In fact, it appears as though he's talking about all immigrants who don't completely buy in to the "Canadian" lifestyle/culture... whatever that is. Drinking coffee at Tim Horton's?



So... If a Sudanese family moves here, speaks Sudanese, lives/plays with/and is a part of the Sudanese community, then they're not living up to their 'responsibility' to completely assimiliate to "Canadian culture"?

Are any of these 'outsiders' that he speaks of not immigrants? Otherwise... I don't think I'm missing his point. There were a bunch of Ukrainians that moved out to the prairie provinces, many of whom spoke no English and kept up their Ukrainian culture. Now it's a celebrated part of those regions of Western Canada. Were they guilty of not assimiliating? Or is it these very differences between peoples that is a defining part of Canadian Identity?

There's an email floating around out there called "The Right to Leave" that my (arch-Conservative) grandparents sent me. I think it sums up his position fairly well. You can find it under a quick Google search, I believe it was written shortly after 9/11 by an American, but it's been modified to be for several countries, including Canada.

Like I said, I really used that as an example of what has happened in the past. Outside cultures (Cultures not born an bred in Canada) .. ie: foreign cultures have complained that there is no place for god in school. And thus, they must take it out. Does anyone remember that court somewhere down south in the states had to remove its big plaque with the commandments on it?

I was just trying to use it as an example to get a point across, and did state not to look further into it than an example.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/21/ten.commandments/


Edit:

I guess i could have done all those posts in 1, but oh well. Sorry for all the posts. But you get to see lots of Amonte =)

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Incinerator

You're completely missing his point, he already qualified what he defined as an "outsider" (people who remain closely guarded in their customs and culture, refusing to merge with the mainstream Canadian society, then cry foul when mainstream Canadians' way of life interfere with theirs.)

Since mainstream Canadians don't want the church in school, wouldn't the person who does want it be the outsider? They seem to fit all of your criteria:
-Remain closely guarded to their customs (still want religion in school)
-Refuse to merge with mainstream society (that wants schools without religion)
-Cry foul... (because there's no religion in schools, the way mainstream Canada wants it)

If that's what Jayems defined as an outsider, the whole example was complely backwards. the people wanting religion in schools are the outsiders.

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Since mainstream Canadians don't want the church in school, wouldn't the person who does want it be the outsider? They seem to fit all of your criteria:
-Remain closely guarded to their customs (still want religion in school)
-Refuse to merge with mainstream society (that wants schools without religion)
-Cry foul... (because there's no religion in schools, the way mainstream Canada wants it)

If that's what Jayems defined as an outsider, the whole example was complely backwards. the people wanting religion in schools are the outsiders.

Maybe, but remember that their "god" is different than some others "god". If you can see all kids praying to Allah at the start of the day in canadian schools, then yes.

Go to Egypt and tell them that they shouldn't pray to their god at schools, because some canadians who moved to Egypt don't believe in Allah.

Why can people come here and tell us not to pray to our god in schools?

I will add that this is not soley just immigrants that are taking up this cause.

Edit:

Again, this is an example. Don't go all crazy on me again. Just making a point, but i have to show that view in order to make it.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Jayems

If you soon learn how to read, go back a step an see that part that says:

"This is an example. Thats all it is, don't look into it more than that"

I'll learn to read when you are able to put together a remotely coherent argument.

I see you said the same wrong thing again to get your point across...

ie: foreign cultures have complained that there is no place for god in school. And thus, they must take it out.

It's not true. If, as you say, "outsiders" are coming in here and dictating how we live our lives then surely you can come up with an example of that happening that you are willing to back up instead of repeating the same clearly false example and saying "don't challenge it" when trying to prove your point.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Jayems

Again, this is an example. Don't go all crazy on me again. Just making a point, but i have to show that view in order to make it.

No you are not making a point.

[Jayems]

lol

The Myth of Islamic/Muslim toleration towards other religions in North America
I have had several requests for information about whether the terrorist attacks are characteristic of Islam in general or were they an aberration? Many ask, "Though obviously most Muslims in North America do not in anyway condone the violence in New York City (World Trade Centre) and the Pentagon, does the Koran? In other words, when we hear that the terrorists in no way reflect the true nature of Islam, is that correct?"


The basic principle here is that Western society and Islamic society cannot coexist. When Muslims become strong enough, they will demand the implementation of "Shariah." Shariah is Islamic law that is based upon the Qur’an and Ahadith. This is the law that makes women virtual prisoners in a man’s house, causes the to wear the veil, and makes them second class citizens. It is the law that demands the execution of those who blaspheme Muhammad, Islam or the Qur’an. This is the law that will not allow Christians to attempt to convert a Muslim and will imprison or execute a Muslim convert unless he recants. This is the law the required US soldiers in Desert Storm to hide their Bibles. This is the law that Muslims want to see replace the constitution of the United States.

Obviously 1 guys/gals view. But anyway.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kill...toleration.htm

Edit:

After further re-reading.. this must be fundamentalist christians. lol. I'm going to try and find the rebuttal.

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

No you are not making a point.

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I'll learn to read when you are able to put together a remotely coherent argument.

I see you said the same wrong thing again to get your point across...

ie: foreign cultures have complained that there is no place for god in school. And thus, they must take it out.

It's not true. If, as you say, "outsiders" are coming in here and dictating how we live our lives then surely you can come up with an example of that happening that you are willing to back up instead of repeating the same clearly false example and saying "don't challenge it" when trying to prove your point.

Forget it.

[Incinerator]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

So... If a Sudanese family moves here, speaks Sudanese, lives/plays with/and is a part of the Sudanese community, then they're not living up to their 'responsibility' to completely assimiliate to "Canadian culture"?

No, it's more like if a Sudanese family moves here, speaks Sudanese, lives/plays with/and is a part of the Sudanese community, then when they steps out of that circle into mainstream Canada they complain that we are not catering to their "Sudanese needs"; they talk loudly in Sudanese in public; and gets mad when no one can understand them when they ask for something (say, a service of some type, like that bank example I used above) in completely incomprehensible English, then they proceed to accuse people of being racist (even if the other person is of their own race, hilarious.) when their request cannot be granted due to the fact that no one is able to understand "their culture" and what they wanted exactly.

That, my friend, is what I have a beef with. And believe it or not I see it happening all the time with new immigrants (NOT Sudanese specifically, that's just the example we chose here, I see this more often with the Chinese and Filipinos).