As an Albertan, would you EVER support seperation from Canada?

[Thunderball]

Look, I'm not doing a very good job making my point, so I'll just sum it up this way.

Calgary is no anomaly when it comes to racism... no better or no worse.

As for my rants about institutional racism... wouldn't it be nice if everyone was treated as equals? As long as there are people getting better (or worse) deals cause of the colour of their skin, we're never gonna get rid of racism. It has to start from the government. When the government says "we're not hiring white males, only women and minorities" (See Dept. of Public Works), they are setting an example that everyone is different... differences lead to jockeying, jockeying leads to racism. Why not, everyone applies, the best get in, we don't care what you look like, everyone is the same.

I might have sounded a bit bigoted in my last couple posts, but that wasn't my intent.

[Footscray]

Ya we should separate from the farmers too while we are hoarding all our ****e, they get way too many subsidies and I don't want to share my money with anyone. Maybe Calgary and Fort McMurray can form some sort of ultra rich republic.

[ken0042]

My biggest concern with Alberta Seperation is this: look at what talk of seperation has done to Quebec.

When seperation became a hot topic in Quebec, it was the hottest province in the country. Montreal was the largest city, and the economy was booming because all the major companies had their head offices in Montreal. Expo 67, The '76 Olympics also helped put Quebec on the map.

Then they spend 40 years b!tching about seperation ,and they are now just another province.

Currently we don't have it as good as Quebec had it in the 60's. Plus there will always be manufacturing. For us, all it takes is some energy discovery like Cold Fusion, or serious advancements in solar power and all of a sudden oil is obsolete. I'm not talking about this year or even this decade, but instead the legacy we would leave for out kids and grandkids.

Keep in mind that if seperation succeds; we likely won't see it completed within our lifetimes.

[Cheese]

The whole question of Alberta seperating is just about the dumbest thing Ive heard. You might get by for a little while...BUT...and this is a BIG but...Alberta has no manufacturing to speak of...I dont think the rest of Canada would look highly on Alberta as a country and provide it with cheap manufactured goods.
The Billions hidden away in the heritage fund would trickle away to nothing within a few years leaving Alberta as a 3rd world couintry IMO. Alberta has no Harbour....no Manufacturing to speak of...no Major rail system of its own...just oil. I guess those who want to seperate could swing a deal with the Saudi's for protection if you like. IF you dont like the politics then get on the bandwagon and do something about it...pouting about it and leaving the party just means you are a quitter.

[return to the red]

No, I'm proud to be an Albertan but I am ALSO proud to be Canadian. Do I like the Federal government in place? hell no Do I like the fact that elections are decided before polls are even closed here? Hell no But in no way shape or form do I think that Alberta would be better off as an independent country, most likely, quickly consumed by the U.S. and many ways

[Reaper]

No. I consider myself a Canadian first and an Albertan second.

[Resolute 14]

The seperation threat alone did not kill Montreal and Quebec. The fact that the government out there is remarkably buisness hostile has had a serious impact.

Cheese - this *is* doing something about it. Canada needs to reform, and has shown no interest. We've supported this welfare case of a nation for decades, and our only thanks is to be demonized and to have our voices ignored.

The current concept of Canada has failed. It needs to be reformed, and if that means breaking the country up, so be it.

[Shin Pad]

Originally Posted by Cheese

The whole question of Alberta seperating is just about the dumbest thing Ive heard. You might get by for a little while...BUT...and this is a BIG but...Alberta has no manufacturing to speak of...I dont think the rest of Canada would look highly on Alberta as a country and provide it with cheap manufactured goods.
The Billions hidden away in the heritage fund would trickle away to nothing within a few years leaving Alberta as a 3rd world couintry IMO. Alberta has no Harbour....no Manufacturing to speak of...no Major rail system of its own...just oil. I guess those who want to seperate could swing a deal with the Saudi's for protection if you like. IF you dont like the politics then get on the bandwagon and do something about it...pouting about it and leaving the party just means you are a quitter.

What can we do about it?? We keep voting against the government, but it doesn't make any difference. We still get the same s**t rammed down our throats - as the East decides who will govern - not the west. I am sick of it. I would rather just Separate. Who really cares if we don't have manufacturing, etc. - we can buy whatever we need a lot cheaper from overseas than from the east anyway.

[Savvy27]

No, I would never entertain such an absurd and stupid idea.

Although I do have an almost sick curiosity that would find it entertaining to watch Albertan separatists suffer as their 'country' falters. As for myself, I will be long gone if separatism in Alberta ever takes a serious foothold because I would be far too embarrassed to be associated in any way with people like those on this board that wish to use separatism as a political weapon. Or, worse still, those who actually believe that Alberta would prosper long term independantly.

It would also be interesting to watch what happens when these same people do not get everything they want from their albertan government. Maybe Calgary would separate again and become a city-state... Perhaps we should declare that Albertans have a 'distinct society' due to the massive political and cultural differences and be allowed to operate their province however they wish. Since, after all, the rest of Canada is filled with "socialists" ... (the first eye roll is for the suggestion that Canada is actually filled with socialists, the second is directed at whoever used the term 'socialist' as if it were an end-all insult...)

The Liberals do not appoint senators based on Albertan elections because Canada does not have an elected senate.

I agree that election reform is overdue in Canada but discussing separation would only further ostracize Alberta from the rest of the nation. Why not put energy and creativity into something positive or at least useful?

[transplant99]

Why not put energy and creativity into something positive or at least useful?

Because the threat of seperation CAN create change...you know...useful?

No, I would never entertain such an absurd and stupid idea.

There ya go folks...true Liberalism.

If you disagree with their thoughts or ideas (that havent worked ata ll towards reform by the way, in fact the opposite) you are absurd and stupid!!

And Canada isnt full of socialists?? Yeah...OK then.

Anyone dismissing the idea out of hand and calling others idiots for considering it...are no better than those that say hell yes....there is validity to both sides of the argument.

I wont dismiss it outright, but it would have to be in conjunction with many other factors to get my attention and support completely.

I wont call those against the idea stupid and absurd however.

[arsenal]

So no thinks that we couldn't get BC and Sask to come with us? Offer them a share of oil revenue directly, which would most likely equal more than their current transfer payments. Like wise, they share in revenue from their main industries (farming, forestry).

BC, Alberta, Sask as a country, would be way better off on their own than being a part of canada. The other option would be to become the 51st state. And I know how popular that would be.

[Kjesse]

Interesting debate on a hockey forum....

I also consider myself Canadian first, Albertan second.

I can't stand the Governor General (the office and the person -- to make the institution work, the GG has to be someone nationally respected... the last few GGs have been poor selections... and Michelle Jean? Give me a break --- she has no qualifications to be representing this country. You have to look very far back in the books to find GGs that you admire.)

I can't stand the Prime Minister (haven't liked one since the early Mulroney years --but I have some begruding respect for Martin for some unknown reason).

I can't stand the Senate.

And I hate the stupid politics coming out of Ottawa in general.

To add salt to the wounds, I live in Rob Anders' riding. That guy scares me to no end. He's only elected because of the party he represents. He gives conservatives and Calgarians a bad name. And there is no chance he'll lose the next election--- zero --- though I'll be a conservative voting against him. Yet another wasted vote I get to cast for the Green Party (though I wish the Rhino's would come back.)

Wow do I hate politics right now. Even the Klein government has got to go. He accomplished his good works, now get out of there and let new ideas take over! His legacy is complete. He's in danger of ruining it.

The only way I would support Alberta leaving Canada (as it now is) is if Quebec separates first, because if that happens, the Constitution as it currently exists would no longer fit the rest of Canada. We would have to rethink Canada from the bottom up.

At that point the rest of the Provinces would have to get together and make a new deal --- and I expect that new deal would be a very decentralized central government in a system where the Provinces become far more powerful. You could also see Quebec joining a federation like that because to do so would be in their own interests.

Pretty scary to think what would happen with the Federal Debt/Assets. Ecomonic ruin would be very likely in the short term and our dollar would become worthless, and inflation rampant. I expect Alberta (and the rest of the provinces) would have to adopt the US dollar.

To those of you who are warming to separation... Alberta on an international stage is nothing. Never would be. Think bigger. But I agree the thought is enticing --- and not a bad hammer to wield from time to time.

[snowdude]

Not now, not ever.

Sure Canada has political problems, but so does Alberta. Actually the Federal government has actually changed parties once in my lifetime so it's better then Alberta in that regard.

[Flame On]

To me there seems to be different issues here. There's election reform or constitutional change, which is something that NO party is beating the drum for. Then there's the I hate the liberals and want the conservatives in complaint.
Canada is working as far as all of the first-past-the-post parties are concerned due to them all subscribing to that system.
To me its a case of sour grapes. I don't think we'd be hearing a peep of this if the Cons were in, except then it would be the same system in reverse with the larger majority of the country not liking the Cons who held power.
Anyway, judging by the poll at the top Alberta would not pass to seperate and then those people wanting it would have cause to rattle their sabres against the government of alberta cause it didn't go their way. Maybe their acerages, blocks, condos and streets would then seperate individually I don't know.

[snowdude]

Originally Posted by arsenal

So no thinks that we couldn't get BC and Sask to come with us?

No, because BC is second after Ontario for supporting Federalism in every poll i've ever seen and they have a population where the race between NDP, CON and LIB are a three way race in most elections. I think that Yellowknife will have an NHL team long before BC (or AB for that matter) decide to leave Canada.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by arsenal

So no thinks that we couldn't get BC and Sask to come with us? Offer them a share of oil revenue directly, which would most likely equal more than their current transfer payments. Like wise, they share in revenue from their main industries (farming, forestry).

BC, Alberta, Sask as a country, would be way better off on their own than being a part of canada. The other option would be to become the 51st state. And I know how popular that would be.

No I don't think we could get BC and Saskatchewan to "come with us". Why would they want to? Oh right, because we'd give them the oil money. How long before we get tired of doing that and want to ditch those goddamn parasites? 5 years? 10? 6 months? What do we need them for? We can look after ourselves.

If the separation party got 9% of the vote in Alberta, I'd peg the serious support for the idea in BC and Saskie at about 0%. Add in the very enticing "we'll give you money, and we'll be like your daddy" aspect of your proposal and the support could, hypothetically of course, go into the negatives.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

I agree that election reform is overdue in Canada but discussing separation would only further ostracize Alberta from the rest of the nation. Why not put energy and creativity into something positive or at least useful?

DING DING DING.

The Triple E senate is something that has been brought up (similar to the american style system) as well as free votes in the house of commons by the Conservative/reform party.

You can't convince people to change because the ones who are in power right now are there solely because of the current terrible power distribution system, and they want to continue to stay in power because of it.

The power to change lies solely with the people who got there in the first place, therefore are unwilling to change it.

If you see another road to election reform, I'd like to hear it. People have put their time and ideas into things that would change the dynamics of the political system, however those voices are lost in the wilderness and fall on uncaring ears.

If you have a solution to this problem, come out and say it.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Flame On

To me there seems to be different issues here. There's election reform or constitutional change, which is something that NO party is beating the drum for.

http://www.davidanderson.ca/NewsRele...arch7-2001.htm

Nope, MPs have never wanted election reform

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

If you see another road to election reform, I'd like to hear it.

How about having more than one vote? For example, you have an election where right now in a place like Quebec 4 major parties are running. Often you have a Quebcois and an "anti-quebecois" vote. Because the anti-Quebecois vote is split 3 ways, the Quebcois party gets in with 33% of the vote.

Have the first vote; and then have the top 2 winners have a run off vote. That way if 67% of the people don't want a Quebecois representative; you won't get one.

This way; each representative gets in with the support of more than 50% of the vote.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by ken0042

How about having more than one vote? For example, you have an election where right now in a place like Quebec 4 major parties are running. Often you have a Quebcois and an "anti-quebecois" vote. Because the anti-Quebecois vote is split 3 ways, the Quebcois party gets in with 33% of the vote.

Have the first vote; and then have the top 2 winners have a run off vote. That way if 67% of the people don't want a Quebecois representative; you won't get one.

This way; each representative gets in with the support of more than 50% of the vote.

Ideas about the actual substance of election reform are wonderful Ken.

Now... How do we get them to listen is the real question.