[Rumour] LeBrun: Flames to add secondary scoring. Friedman: A lot of people think Toffoli

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Indomitable

The Flames aren't going to make any kind of splash. There are no facilities here to make someone want to come. The allure of the mountains won't be enough to get anyone to come. Not for the next few years anyway. Our team is our team and it will be that for the next few years. Those that will walk, will walk. Reality dictates as such.

This gets repeated but it's also such an eyeroller

This is the trade deadline, not free agency. If a team trades a player here, they're coming here to play, even if it's just the remainder of the season. Kadri was an outlier, that's not going to be the norm.

Players don't orchestrate trades, their GMs do.

Even a lot of players with NTCs aren't going to ultimately deny the wishes of their team if they've decided they want to part ways. Makes the relationship awkward.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Indomitable

Didn't do anything... you literally quoted what they did.

No, that is what they are alleged to have done and the maximum they could possibly have done. It has never been proved that they did even that.

As I and other posters keep pointing out, Kucherov returned to play when his doctors predicted that he would. At the time of his surgery, it was agreed that he was out for the duration of the regular season. The only question was whether he would be available for the first round of the playoffs or only for the later rounds.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by shadowlord

Didn't Chicago also do something similar with Patrick Kane as well in 2016? He had a legit injury, and then they put him on LTIR and acquired players at the TDL that added up to Kane's exact salary... then his injury miraculously healed in time for Game 1 of Round 1, where it has been initially diagnosed to recover by the 3rd round.

You must be thinking of 2015, because Kane played all 82 games in 2015-16.

I have just looked up the deadline trades that the Blackhawks made in 2015. They added Spencer Abbott, Kimmo Timonen, Antoine Vermette, and Andrew Desjardins. Abbott never played for the NHL club that year, and of the other three, the only one to make any significant contribution was Vermette (4-3-7 in 20 GP in the playoffs). And the Hawks stayed within the letter of the rules. Kane was legitimately injured and he was legitimately out for the end of the regular season.

[Indomitable]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Sorry, I thought you only had one piece of information, and that is easily debunked.
If it's so easily debunked, then do it. Don't just say it is. Literal lazy.
So I don't know how to do what you did. I am just responding in between the verbatim that you wrote.


He played when he was cleared to play. You know perfectly well that skating, even practising in a regular jersey, does not mean you are immediately fit to play after a layoff of several months. Except when it's Tampa, and then suddenly it becomes the Bavarian Illuminati taking over the world.

[If he played when he was cleared to play then he would have. I don't know about you, but when the media (hey, I agree they suck balls) reports that a player is in a non contact jersey that usually means they are closer to return than when Tampa media went whoop! Delete that he's in a non contact jersey (which they did and you can look that up yourself because it did happen)]



So you're still banging on about one case.

[One case? What are you talking about one case? My original question was "When has the salary cap been an adverse condition (ADVERSE BEING THE CRUX OF THE QUESTION) for a team to go for the Stanley Cup (sic)]

What's impossible about that? He returned to play almost exactly at the time his doctors predicted he would be ready.

[He literally returned at the time that would be most advantageous to his team. Literally. Despite previous reports that he was ready to do so prior to. Literal reports. In the suspect media. Those reports were reported and subsequently deleted from media. It has been documented.]


Me? I live in Canada. I don't consider myself Canadian, because I am perfectly well aware that my country hates me and has no use for me. I just haven't got the means to go anywhere else.

[I don't care where you live. I literally do not. I don't care who you are, where you are and where you come from. You were the a$$hat that brought up nationality. None of that means anything to me. You were the one to bring up country. Am I at fault for defending mine? Maybe. Maybe I am. That doesn't mean Sh*t to me. Sorry you are where you don't like to live. I honestly, truthfully hope you will get where you want and need to be. I wish with all that I am that you are happy and have the means to be happy. If you aren't or can't, I don't have much but let me know and I would honestly try to help you.]


Canadians invented cheating in hockey – probably the same day they invented the game itself.

[Of course they did. Give me a break. Why do you think rules were invented in the first place? Rules were invented to try and curb cheating in the game.]

What self-righteous twaddle. Are you familiar with the story of how the NHL got started? It was an exercise in cheating. The entire reason why the NHL was founded was to freeze out one of the owners and steal his players without compensation. (It was originally supposed to operate for only one year while the con was being played, but the old league was so bogged down with lawsuits that they decided to keep the new league going and ditch the old one.)

[Twaddle? Give me a break, I haven't spoken any twaddle at all. What you're speaking of is literal twaddle as I didn't go anywhere near the creation of the game nor the crap that players had to go through in the early stages prior to the creation of the NHLPA]

There are scores of cases where Canadians have cheated the NHL system. It's been going on for more than a century. But the particular kind of cheating you're all worked up about does not exist. If the salary cap was not an obstacle for teams trying to win the Stanley Cup, the Leafs, Habs, and Rangers would find a way to ice $150-million payrolls – because those three teams could do that every year and still make a profit.

[The cheating your're speaking of revolves around the cheating of the NHL vs the players and that wasn't cleared up until the early Pulford/Eagleson years which turned out to be it's own bullcrap era because those folks were in it for themselves. The difference being that they were exposed for their transgressions and we have yet to see the ditry side of what is truly going on) I say this out of brackets because I assume you are smart enough to know that there is literally no and I mean NO altruism happening in today's game nor today's world.

The fact that teams take full advantage of the LTIR clause (and that the clause was poorly written in the first place) does not equate to circumventing the cap. They follow the rules as written. You just don't like it and think it's an evil Yankee conspiracy to steal ‘our’ Stanley Cup, and probably ‘our’ Great Lakes as well. It isn't. Deal with it.

[The fact that today's teams take advantage of the salary cap loopholes may be a reality yes. Why should we have to put up with it though? It is literally an EVIL YANKEE CONSPIRACY. Who is the person running the game? Is it a Canadian? Is it someone who has the roots of the game or the roots of the fan base in mind? Can you realistically say yes to either of those questions? I mean, who the ##### are you. Who are you really? You seem to support the wrong side of the equation when it comes to hockey. Maybe you need a reality check on your side. Get a real life and then maybe check on my own.] Peace and good luck to you and yours.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Indomitable

Am I supposed to dredge up all of the information for you or are you too lazy to look that up for yourself?

Well, you made the claim. So yes, you are supposed to do that. That's how this works. Burden of proof is on you.

[Indomitable]

Originally Posted by Indomitable

[The fact that today's teams take advantage of the salary cap loopholes may be a reality yes. Why should we have to put up with it though? It is literally an EVIL YANKEE CONSPIRACY. Who is the person running the game? Is it a Canadian? Is it someone who has the roots of the game or the roots of the fan base in mind? Can you realistically say yes to either of those questions? I mean, who the ##### are you. Who are you really? You seem to support the wrong side of the equation when it comes to hockey. Maybe you need a reality check on your side. Get a real life and then maybe check on my own.] Peace and good luck to you and yours.

sorry Jayradom, I am new to this so a lot of what I wrote didn't show up in the actual response. I hope you choose to read it despite it being incorrectly posted.

[Indomitable]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

This gets repeated but it's also such an eyeroller

This is the trade deadline, not free agency. If a team trades a player here, they're coming here to play, even if it's just the remainder of the season. Kadri was an outlier, that's not going to be the norm.

Players don't orchestrate trades, their GMs do.

Even a lot of players with NTCs aren't going to ultimately deny the wishes of their team if they've decided they want to part ways. Makes the relationship awkward.

That is literally the thing though... It's not old. It is "newish". A player is a human being. Despite the business of the NHL, a player is able and capable of determining their destination. With and without an NTC. See Pronger=Chris
If a player doesn't want to be where he is, that will be a HUGE factor in his play and or his inclination to stay where he is. I would hearken to say that it would also have an effect on his play style and or give a crap meter. Would you disagree?

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

No, that is what they are alleged to have done and the maximum they could possibly have done. It has never been proved that they did even that.

As I and other posters keep pointing out, Kucherov returned to play when his doctors predicted that he would. At the time of his surgery, it was agreed that he was out for the duration of the regular season. The only question was whether he would be available for the first round of the playoffs or only for the later rounds.

He started skating with the team in mid-March, started wearing a contact jersey on April 16, and amazingly was ready to return exactly on May 16, the first game of the playoffs, and not a day sooner. This is the one and only time I have seen a player wear a full contact jersey for a full month before returning to action, it's usually only a day or two.

[Indomitable]

Originally Posted by the2bears

Well, you made the claim. So yes, you are supposed to do that. That's how this works. Burden of proof is on you.

ok, so I'm the one that has to go through multiple volumes of CP texts because folks conveniently forgot? Burden of proof lies on those with long memories but is conveniently absent for people that choose to forget or do not have the mental capacity to remember? Is that literally what the world has come to? If I told you that the sky was blue due to a certain amount of chemicals which I cannot name specifically in this instance was a true statement would you also say that the proof is my burden? Give your head a shake. The internet is there for everyone. If you want to disprove me, go ahead and do so.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Indomitable

Didn't do anything... you literally quoted what they did.

They held him out a couple weeks at most. What you are suggesting that Vegas will do is actually invent injuries to players other than Eichel. Eichel is skating now. Due to play in a week or so. Who is suddenly going to have surgery?

[djsFlames]

You're referencing a player that hasn't played in the league in years.

I think those cases are few and far between. If TOR didn't have an alternate trade floating in the wings, Kadri probably ends up here anyways, even if it took a day for him to digest it first.

Players learn to keep their heads down and accept their destinations, even if they aren't particularly fond of them. It's part of learning to be a pro in this business.

The players that put their foot down and force their team's hand are probably the 5% most hardlining personalities. Most players don't fall into that category.

You don't hear of every second or third trade destination being diverted by the player with or without an NTC. It's a 1 in 10 trades or fewer type of circumstance.

Countless recollections of former players on their careers do you hear "it's the nature of the business, you go where you're told"

You rarely hear about GMs being super flexible and accommodating and keeping the player in on proceedings (unless the rare case where you're a long time vet or franchise star). The players would just get the call and start packing their bags.

Even in the case of Iggy, he didn't have a lot of knowledge on the going ons. There were a couple of calls, and in the end the team was kind enough to extend him an offer of two destinations.

If this has drastically changed at some point then it's news to me, and it would be a pretty huge alteration in the way the NHL conducts itself if all walks of players had that kind of veto power behind the scenes.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

If you are Giroux why would you waive to come to Calgary. It is not like the flames are highly ranked contenders and he is the final piece.

It will be interesting to see how many American based players with nice/ntc’s agree to come to Canadian based teams

Gaudreau: "I'm re-signing here in Calgary and will never goto Philly!"

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

They held him out a couple weeks at most. What you are suggesting that Vegas will do is actually invent injuries to players other than Eichel. Eichel is skating now. Due to play in a week or so. Who is suddenly going to have surgery?

McCrimmon recently said in an interview asking how the VGK were going to be cap compliant when Eichel was cleared to play something along the lines of injuries are always happening. A player or two who are a bit banged up will be going on IR.

[dino7c]

I could see a player seeing the Flames as a contender mostly due to the coach and the goalie. Not to mention the path to the western final

Sure you can go to the Leafs and then play the Panthers or Lightning in round one...or come to Calgary and play LA, Edmonton, Anaheim


Flames MIGHT be in a really solid spot by the deadline...they probably should be

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I could see a player seeing the Flames as a contender mostly due to the coach and the goalie. Not to mention the path to the western final

Could see T. Toffoli being one of those.

I mean just look at the Flames goal differential, and GA. Those really stick out.

If they were around even and with a middling coach like years past, they probably wouldn't jump off the page.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

They held him out a couple weeks at most. What you are suggesting that Vegas will do is actually invent injuries to players other than Eichel. Eichel is skating now. Due to play in a week or so. Who is suddenly going to have surgery?

I don't believe the CBA entitled them to hold him out for any period of time when it was determined that he was fit to play. Not having the cap space is not a valid reason for not taking someone off IR when they are fit to play.

[Roof-Daddy]

I've said it many threads, add Toffoli and Jarnkrok and this team will be in a very good position to succeed if they can stay healthy.

They would bolster our 2nd and 3rd lines perfectly IMO, which would also bolster the 4th line and overall depth from the trickle down effect.

The sooner the better please. Give them time to gel and give them the best chance to own this huge stretch of home games coming up.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

The sooner the better please.

The thing is, the cap only works if you wait right until the deadline. As another poster pointed out, the Flames have only about $2.8 million in prorated cap space today, but if they wait until deadline day to add players, that amount doubles.

At the moment, the Flames have the cap space to add Jarnkrok but not Toffoli. If they wait until the last few days before the deadline, they'll be able to add both (assuming that two league-minimum players get traded, waived, or bumped to the minors to make room). From a team-building perspective this is not ideal, but from a cap perspective that's how it has to be.

Originally Posted by Indomitable

ok, so I'm the one that has to go through multiple volumes of CP texts because folks conveniently forgot? Burden of proof lies on those with long memories but is conveniently absent for people that choose to forget or do not have the mental capacity to remember? Is that literally what the world has come to? If I told you that the sky was blue due to a certain amount of chemicals which I cannot name specifically in this instance was a true statement would you also say that the proof is my burden? Give your head a shake. The internet is there for everyone. If you want to disprove me, go ahead and do so.

This kind of insulting drivel is not even worth responding to. You haven't made a case, only an accusation, which we've all heard before and for which there is no direct evidence. I didn't conveniently forget anything. I just think your interpretation of the facts is wrong, if not downright crazy.

Based on your one accusation against Tampa Bay, you have invented a wild story that there is an evil conspiracy led by Gary Bettman to deprive Canadians of the Stanley Cup by allowing all U.S. teams to exceed the cap whenever they like by as much as they like. Well, every team in the U.S. is cap-compliant at the moment, and some of them have traded away multiple picks and useful players to get rid of bad contracts to get there. If this is a conspiracy, it's a piss-poor one.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

If you are Giroux why would you waive to come to Calgary. It is not like the flames are highly ranked contenders and he is the final piece.

It will be interesting to see how many American based players with nice/ntc’s agree to come to Canadian based teams

The Flames are very close to be highly ranked contenders who could be looking for the final piece by the time the deadline rolls around. This team has elite analytics and if they can take care of business at home before the deadline they are likely 1st or comfortably 2nd in the division.

They have an elite first line, top end goalie, solid blueline, and a HOF coach. They need some high end forward depth. Maybe Giroux doesn’t waive to come here but the team itself could easily be positioned as a contender looking for that piece to get them over

[Toonage]

Whatever they decide on, whoever they decide on, I hope it happens sooner than the deadline.