Sutter re: recalling prospects

[Vinny01]

Biggest issue with secondary scoring is the lack of bounce back from Monahan and less than expected numbers from Backlund, Coleman and Dube. I think it is reasonable to expect those 4 to be better than they have been.

With that said I think it makes a lot of sense to give a guy like Phillips a look. He is turning 24 and not a kid like Pelletier. I get it that he is small but he is also very skilled and is producing.

I think they need to make a trade or try a guy from Stockton

[SuperMatt18]

Part of the problem here was the Flames strategy after the trade deadline last year.

The young guys (Gawdin, Phillips, Ruzicka, Mackey, Kylington) should have probably gotten more ice time down the stretch last year to give them more of a taste of the NHL.

Instead we kept playing hurt players (Monahan, Tanev, etc), or low upside UFA veterans (Leivo, Nordstrom, Nesterov) in an effort to squeeze into the playoffs until we will officially eliminated, even though it was unlikely we would be able to claw in.

That ice time would be valuable now because you wouldn't be as worried that you are throwing players into their first 5-10 NHL games in the middle of a season where you are in a playoff position, and you'd have more of an idea of what these guys are at the next level.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

You have no idea if they aren't. We haven't seen Pelletier at all, and we haven't seen Phillips in any meaningful games.

All I care about is seeing a change, because the current depth isn't working. If Phillips/Pelletier don't work, send them back down.

Pelletier will likely be an NHL player. He's smallish, but he plays the game in a way that is compatible with the NHL. What he will be is still open for debate, but he has the makeup to be an NHL player. I think he gets called up at the end of the season as a black ace, but the next camp will be his opportunity to shine.

Phillips isn't an NHL player. He's just too small and the NHL is a big man's game. Your team can only have so many small players on it, and Phillips is just so small no one is willing to look at him in any way. He'll be a high end AHL player, or possibly be a star in the Euro leagues, but the NHL just doesn't seem to be in the cards for him. I would not be surprised if the Flames did not renew his contract and moved on from him this summer. I think Phillips is a player you have fallen in love with (best player in the AHL over the past two years?) and just can't get past the fact that his limitations are so huge they prevent him from taking the next step.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Part of the problem here was the Flames strategy after the trade deadline last year.

The young guys (Gawdin, Phillips, Ruzicka, Mackey, Kylington) should have probably gotten more ice time down the stretch last year to give them more of a taste of the NHL.

Instead we kept playing hurt players (Monahan, Tanev, etc), or low upside UFA veterans (Leivo, Nordstrom, Nesterov) in an effort to squeeze into the playoffs until we will officially eliminated, even though it was unlikely we would be able to claw in.

That ice time would be valuable now because you wouldn't be as worried that you are throwing players into their first 5-10 NHL games in the middle of a season where you are in a playoff position, and you'd have more of an idea of what these guys are at the next level.

I don't disagree with you, but it's a dangerous game. I think a head coach needs to instill a culture of winning at all times. If not, then what are we even doing here?

If there is a mathematical chance at the playoffs, a head coach should try every move to get in - and that means playing NHL guys and not giving tryouts to AHL guys. If he's signaling that he's given up, it sends a bad message to everyone IMO.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Biggest issue with secondary scoring is the lack of bounce back from Monahan and less than expected numbers from Backlund, Coleman and Dube. I think it is reasonable to expect those 4 to be better than they have been...

Agreed. I think tbe good news here is that Backlund has looked like he is starting to turn it around. He has been much more engaged in the offensive zone the past few games, and it feels like only a matter of time before he goes on a tear.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[Strange Brew]

On his FAN interview Darryl talked about the C position. To the effect that they're not getting much production out of it, but these are the players they have so they need to get other things out of the position.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Stampede2TheCup

Having played in the NHL by now is now way to measure the successful development of a prospect. Pelletier hasn't even played 30 games in his first season as a pro, so he's hardly been buried for 2 years. Glenn Gawdin is also one of the best players in the AHL right now and he has 1 point in 9 games as a Flame.

I didn't say he has been buried for years. I said they shouldn't burry him for 2 years. Not when he's already one of the best players in the league. Not when he's already one of the last 1st round picks of his draft not to play. He has been far too good to need two more years of AHL experience.

And I disagree with the premise. Yes, having played in the NHL is a way to measure the successful development of a prospect. Obviously, it's just one metric. But there is a very strong correlation between the age of one's first NHL appearance and their overall quality as a player. And at the very least, it says something about the speed of development.

[CliffFletcher]

Sutter talked about prospects again this morning. Two comments stood out:

1) 19 year olds are boys, not men. Unless prospects are exceptional, they need 1-3 years of development in the minors.

2) In the pre-season games, Pelletier didn’t look “anywhere close” to being NHL ready.

[CSharp]

LOL, love Sutter being blunt about things. I'm starting to really like this Sutter guy - as a coach again!

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Phillips isn't an NHL player. He's just too small and the NHL is a big man's game. Your team can only have so many small players on it, and Phillips is just so small no one is willing to look at him in any way. He'll be a high end AHL player, or possibly be a star in the Euro leagues, but the NHL just doesn't seem to be in the cards for him. I would not be surprised if the Flames did not renew his contract and moved on from him this summer. I think Phillips is a player you have fallen in love with (best player in the AHL over the past two years?) and just can't get past the fact that his limitations are so huge they prevent him from taking the next step.

Here's the thing though...you don't know that for 100% sure until you actually give him a couple games.

He's about the same weight as Paul Bryon who carved out a nice NHL career, Gaudreau isn't much bigger either.

His size should be too small for the AHL too but it hasn't hurt him in that league at all.

To be fair to Scorp he's watching more Heat games than any of us the last two seasons, and if he says that Phillips has been their best player over that time then I trust that. It seems to align with what the coaching staff says too that Phillips is the engine that drives that team.

It's about the smallest sample size possible but in his 11 minutes of NHL time he was 79.7% xGF, had 2 shots on goal and 2 scoring chances and had a pretty good game overall.

I know that was a mean nothing game, and that these guys didn't have a great showing in pre-season this year...but honestly a lot of that was the way Sutter set up training camp.

He put 25 guys on one roster that were all incumbent NHLers, put the AHL roster in another group, and pretty much only played the AHL in road pre-season games against other teams more veteran rosters. The young guys weren't really given an opportunity to earn a spot this year.

It would be a waste of a draft pick and asset to just say "You're too small, you never should get a chance" because in that case why did you draft him to start with.

Also the idea that you need to have a roster of only big forwards to win in the NHL is false, Tampa Bay had 5 forwards under 5'11" last season (Kucherov, Point, Gourde, Coleman, Johnson). The Flames have 4 players under 5'11" right now (Gaudreau, Dube, Coleman, Mangiapane), and have 6 forwards that are 6'2" and over 200 lbs (Lucic, Ritchie, Tkachuk, Pitlick, Lewis, Monahan). If anything we have a big forward group right now, which should be the perfect situation for a guy like Phillips go be given a shot. What our forward group lacks right now is speed, skill, and finish.

[TheScorpion]

It's "falling in love with a player" to say a guy who has led the Stockton Heat in scoring over the past two seasons and is currently one of just two U24 players in the league's top 10 scorers is one of the best players in the AHL?

The only reason I've advocated for Phillips for so long is because the Flames have been hellbent against giving him even one meaningful look despite his outstanding production and play. If they'd tried him and he didn't work out, the outlook would be very different.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

It's "falling in love with a player" to say a guy who has led the Stockton Heat in scoring over the past two seasons and is currently one of just two U24 players in the league's top 10 scorers is one of the best players in the AHL?

The only reason I've advocated for Phillips for so long is because the Flames have been hellbent against giving him even one meaningful look despite his outstanding production and play. If they'd tried him and he didn't work out, the outlook would be very different.

Philips makes the most sense to me for an extended call up. He is a right shot, is not a first year pro, and in a results driven business he deserves a look (especially if Sutter doesn’t want to give Pelletier a look). I wonder if his size is the reason they have not called him up? I would way rather give him a look rather than Pitlick, or Ritchie in the top 6

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

It's "falling in love with a player" to say a guy who has led the Stockton Heat in scoring over the past two seasons and is currently one of just two U24 players in the league's top 10 scorers is one of the best players in the AHL?

The only reason I've advocated for Phillips for so long is because the Flames have been hellbent against giving him even one meaningful look despite his outstanding production and play. If they'd tried him and he didn't work out, the outlook would be very different.

The Flames organization just gets myopic about guys with apparent "flaws". They sometimes luck their way into a good situation (i.e. Seattle picking Giordano over Kylington, or Mangiapane scoring like a first liner from thr 4th line to the point where they had to promote him) but typically they do everything in their power to magnify the percieved flaws of good hockey players, and nothing in their power to prioritize team skill and success.

I guess it's all moot though given the overall outlook of the core. Without a Connor Bedard type 1C it doesn't matter if a guy like Phillips is a 90 point star or a 0 point AHLer.

Pellettier is undersized? Lol, at least 25 of 32 teams would have given him a look in their top nine by now.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

The Flames organization just gets myopic about guys with apparent "flaws". They sometimes luck their way into a good situation (i.e. Seattle picking Giordano over Kylington, or Mangiapane scoring like a first liner from thr 4th line to the point where they had to promote him) but typically they do everything in their power to magnify the percieved flaws of good hockey players, and nothing in their power to prioritize team skill and success.

I guess it's all moot though given the overall outlook of the core. Without a Connor Bedard type 1C it doesn't matter if a guy like Phillips is a 90 point star or a 0 point AHLer.

Pellettier is undersized? Lol, at least 25 of 32 teams would have given him a look in their top nine by now.

Many things change ...

New owners in and out.
New GMs into to make decisions.
The add of a president of hockey operations.
The exit of the role of president of hockey operations.
Different CBAs with different issues around dollars and competition.

But one thing that never changes ... the existence of fans on this site that are convinced they are smarter than hockey executives. The annual Dustin Boyd syndrome.

You really think the team thinks like this? They find a flaw in every player they've selected and try and stand in their way towards success ... because ... reasons! And then when they are forced to fire a GM or a coach, or change scouts they bring them in and let them know how it's going to go?

"Yeah you like this player but we've decided he's small so we're never going to give him a chance, understood!?"

An organization purposely hurting themselves over a principal that only you have identified?

They have nine drafted players on their active roster, and traded for a goaltender with little NHL experience and made them a backup.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bingo

"Yeah you like this player but we've decided he's small so we're never going to give him a chance, understood!?"

An organization purposely hurting themselves over a principal that only you have identified?

You can handwaive my assertions a million times, but it doesn't change the reality that there is a myopic view on what the organization thinks works... even when it... doesn't actually work.

Matthew Phillips has played 0 NHL games this year.

Brett Ritchie, in a season where he's been hurt for most of the year, has played 12. And still produced as few points as Phillips. Nothing on his resume at any point in his career has ever indicated that he is NHL-calibre, yet there he is. A roster regular for no reason other than size myopia.

It's got nothing to do with Dustin Boyd and everything to do with the vast majority of the NHL vs the Calgary Flames.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

It's "falling in love with a player" to say a guy who has led the Stockton Heat in scoring over the past two seasons and is currently one of just two U24 players in the league's top 10 scorers is one of the best players in the AHL?

The only reason I've advocated for Phillips for so long is because the Flames have been hellbent against giving him even one meaningful look despite his outstanding production and play. If they'd tried him and he didn't work out, the outlook would be very different.

Phillips had a long look in training camp and pre season and did nothing with it. That is why he isn't getting another look. He is 23, that was his chance to prove he is ready to perform at an NHL level. In those games he wasn't even pedestrian, he was bad most of the time. If he were an NHLer he would have proved it when he got his chance.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

You can handwaive my assertions a million times, but it doesn't change the reality that there is a myopic view on what the organization thinks works... even when it... doesn't actually work.

Matthew Phillips has played 0 NHL games this year.

Brett Ritchie, in a season where he's been hurt for most of the year, has played 12. And still produced as few points as Phillips. Nothing on his resume at any point in his career has ever indicated that he is NHL-calibre, yet there he is. A roster regular for no reason other than size myopia.

It's got nothing to do with Dustin Boyd and everything to do with the vast majority of the NHL vs the Calgary Flames.

He did score 16 goals in a season once. Sure it was probably a complete fluke, but it's not nothing.

[PeteMoss]

I think we all agree the Flames have an issue with scoring outside of the top 4 guys. It'd be great if the solution was in the organization but I'm doubtful Phillips is that solution. But its also not like the Flames can't find a spot to give him a try. But if that is going to happen - Ruzicka will likely have to go the minors first.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Phillips had a long look in training camp and pre season and did nothing with it. That is why he isn't getting another look. He is 23, that was his chance to prove he is ready to perform at an NHL level. In those games he wasn't even pedestrian, he was bad most of the time. If he were an NHLer he would have proved it when he got his chance.

He played a total of 10 minutes and one second in the entire pre-season, exclusively with the B-squad.

That's what you're using as a base for your entire evaluation of him? That's a hilariously tiny "chance."

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

He did score 16 goals in a season once. Sure it was probably a complete fluke, but it's not nothing.

You know who has a more impressive resume?

Lance Bouma