Which player do you most want to see gone?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Playing Dube on the wing until he proves he can be a centerman is perfectly fine with me.

It is literally impossible to prove you can be a center from the wing.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

It is literally impossible to prove you can be a center from the wing.

Not necessarily. Wingers can still cut to the middle and distribute effectively left and right. Gaudreau does this all the time. He’s probably the best “center” on the team in terms playmaking up the middle. He certainly hid Monahan’s deficiencies in this area. McDavid and Draisaitl also do this effectively when paired together. It’s partly what makes them so dangerous, both can drive play through the middle, naturally because they’re both centerman whilw the other guy just ends up playing off them.

Specifically for Dube, he needs to prove he can do the defensive role asked from centers and he needs to drive his line I think before he can be tried at center.

[Jore]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Not necessarily. Wingers can still cut to the middle and distribute effectively left and right. Gaudreau does this all the time. He’s probably the best “center” on the team in terms playmaking up the middle. He certainly hid Monahan’s deficiencies in this area. McDavid and Draisaitl also do this effectively when paired together. It’s partly what makes them so dangerous, both can drive play through the middle, naturally because they’re both centerman whilw the other guy just ends up playing off them.

Specifically for Dube, he needs to prove he can do the defensive role asked from centers and he needs to drive his line I think before he can be tried at center.

Wingers have been crossing over the ice since the 70s, if not earlier. The importance of owning the middle of the ice starts in the D zone. The C has to stay above the play and read the attacking pattern and make pinches. Then the C can either turn up the ice with the puck, dish it to a winger ahead of the play, or drop to supporting players in the next layer.

Coincidentally these are the exact roles Monahan struggles with.

Dube can change wings in transition but that does not a C make, nor does it showcase how he would do if tasked with coming up with the puck in his own zone. The only way to find out is to play him as a C.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Jore

Wingers have been crossing over the ice since the 70s, if not earlier. The importance of owning the middle of the ice starts in the D zone. The C has to stay above the play and read the attacking pattern and make pinches. Then the C can either turn up the ice with the puck, dish it to a winger ahead of the play, or drop to supporting players in the next layer.

Coincidentally these are the exact roles Monahan struggles with.

Dube can change wings in transition but that does not a C make, nor does it showcase how he would do if tasked with coming up with the puck in his own zone. The only way to find out is to play him as a C.

Yep, I’m not going to refute your points as they’re perfectly valid and I think Dube has potential to one day play up the middle. But the center position is without a doubt the most vital role within the forward ranks, so does it make sense especially for a coach like Darryl to experiment with this? Or does it make more sense to keep him at wing until he takes that next step like Mangiapane has?

For instance, if Mangiapane was a natural center, I’d have no problem moving him to center as he’s sort of graduated in my opinion from potential young stud to veteran difference maker. I think when Dube reaches that same level, he’ll deserve his shot to be elevated into a more important role/slot/position.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Specifically for Dube, he needs to prove he can do the defensive role asked from centers and he needs to drive his line I think before he can be tried at center.

Again, this is impossible to prove from the wing. Look at how bad Mikael Backlund looked as a winger in 2019, whether that was defensively or otherwise.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

But the center position is without a doubt the most vital role within the forward ranks, so does it make sense especially for a coach like Darryl to experiment with this?

Does the team need centers? Yes, it does.
So yes it makes sense to experiment with the center position. Look no further than Tampa who roll Point and Cirelli as their 1/2C. Back in 2015 they had Johnson and Stamkos playing those roles and yet they fell short. So they moved those guys around the lineup.

Or does it make more sense to keep him at wing until he takes that next step like Mangiapane has?

Dube is not Mangiapane. He's not a natural winger. He's not goalscorer either. If you want to get the most out of HIS skillset, you are not going to play him at a position that forces him to defend along the walls and points, lead the rush and button hook etc. We've seen this exact scenario play out before.

For instance, if Mangiapane was a natural center, I’d have no problem moving him to center as he’s sort of graduated in my opinion from potential young stud to veteran difference maker.

If Mangiapane were a natural center, there's no proof he'd be the player he is today the way we have utilized him. His skillset at both ends is that of a winger.

I think when Dube reaches that same level, he’ll deserve his shot to be elevated into a more important role/slot/position.

Again, back to Mikael Backlund circa 2019 or Sam Bennett circa his entire Flames career or Elias Lindholm circa his entire hurricanes career - natural centers do not "prove" themselves as centers on the wing.

If Dube is physically ready for the center position, then you have to let him play it and see how he reads the game, both with and without the puck.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Does the team need centers? Yes, it does.
So yes it makes sense to experiment with the center position. Look no further than Tampa who roll Point and Cirelli as their 1/2C. Back in 2015 they had Johnson and Stamkos playing those roles and yet they fell short. So they moved those guys around the lineup.



Dube is not Mangiapane. He's not a natural winger. He's not goalscorer either. If you want to get the most out of HIS skillset, you are not going to play him at a position that forces him to defend along the walls and points, lead the rush and button hook etc. We've seen this exact scenario play out before.



If Mangiapane were a natural center, there's no proof he'd be the player he is today the way we have utilized him. His skillset at both ends is that of a winger.



Again, back to Mikael Backlund circa 2019 or Sam Bennett circa his entire Flames career or Elias Lindholm circa his entire hurricanes career - natural centers do not "prove" themselves as centers on the wing.

If Dube is physically ready for the center position, then you have to let him play it and see how he reads the game, both with and without the puck.

Is Dube a Point or Cirelli though? I think the Flames need centers too, but they need the right centers. So does it make sense to lets say drop Dube down the depth chart to center the 4th line or does it make sense to play him in in the 2nd or 3rd line wing position?

The main point I'm making with Mangiapane is that he has built up equity. The type of equity where you know he's a difference maker night in and night out and perhaps you can start elevating his role. Dube on the otherhand is being benched and scratched by Sutter and isn't an everyday NHLer yet. In his words, "lots of growing up to do." So, trying him at an important position like center, not sure Dube is ready for that kind of duty yet.

But what I will say though is, I think Dube will come back more motivated than ever this coming season. So I expect a big offseason work out from him and I'd absolutely try him out as a center in camp and give him plenty of rope there. Personally though, I've always liked him on his off wing as he has a great wrister in stride. But I'm sort of open to anything with Dube as he's got a lot of versatility in him.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Is Dube a Point or Cirelli though?

No one is pretending he's a Point, but maybe he is a Cirelli. You don't know what you have in him.

I think the Flames need centers too, but they need the right centers.

You mean, like, centers who thrive carrying the puck through the middle of the ice with their acceleration?

So does it make sense to lets say drop Dube down the depth chart to center the 4th line or does it make sense to play him in in the 2nd or 3rd line wing position?

Neither makes sense. Play him as your (sheltered) 2C with decent wingers and see how he does. He can't be much worse than what Monahan showed this year.

The main point I'm making with Mangiapane is that he has built up equity.

And the main point I'm making is that Mangiapane's skillset allowed him to build up equity at the position he is already comfortable playing. Dube's skillset is not identical to Mangiapane's skillset, so you are comparing apples and oranges. Even a guy like Matthew Barzal would look awful playing LW on a checking line. When someone is miscast, you can't just stubbornly challenge them to rise to the occasion as of effort and execution will magically develop.

You have to put players in a position to succeed.

Dube on the otherhand is being benched and scratched by Sutter and isn't an everyday NHLer yet. In his words, "lots of growing up to do." So, trying him at an important position like center, not sure Dube is ready for that kind of duty yet.

Or maybe, just maybe, Dube's perceived lack of growing up has to do with the fact that he's (yet another) square peg in a round hole. I know that center is in many ways a more difficult position than wing, but some guys are just better-suited to center because of their skillsets.

I'm not excusing Dube's mediocre play last year, but if he's not comfortable on the wing (his off-wing at that) it's going to continue to fail.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

No one is pretending he's a Point, but maybe he is a Cirelli. You don't know what you have in him.



You mean, like, centers who thrive carrying the puck through the middle of the ice with their acceleration?



Neither makes sense. Play him as your (sheltered) 2C with decent wingers and see how he does. He can't be much worse than what Monahan showed this year.



And the main point I'm making is that Mangiapane's skillset allowed him to build up equity at the position he is already comfortable playing. Dube's skillset is not identical to Mangiapane's skillset, so you are comparing apples and oranges.



Or maybe, just maybe, Dube's perceived lack of growing up has to do with the fact that he's (yet another) square peg in a round hole. I know that center is in many ways a more difficult position than wing, but some guys are just better-suited to center because of their skillsets.

I'm not excusing Dube's mediocre play last year, but if he's not comfortable on the wing (his off-wing at that) it's going to continue to fail.

This conversation is just essentially the Sam Bennett at center discussion only disguised with a different name and I certainly had enough of that the first go around, so I'm just gonna bow out and say we'll have to agree. I'll see how much Dube works out and grows over the offseason before I make any more judgements. All I know is, center is a tough role with a lot of defensive duties against some huge 6'4" monsters, so I'm partially skeptical about his ability to accomplish that role right now as well.