Adam Fox & the NCAA "Loophole?"

[FlamesAddiction]

It is somewhat ironic the Flames organization benefited a lot from the university pipeline in the 80s and early 90s when it became large source of overlooked NHL talent. Gary Suter drafted in the 9th round, Joel Otto undrafted, Colin Patterson undrafted. Paul Ranheim was drafted relatively high in the 2nd round, but was an important player too.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I bet that Dion Phaneuf's second or third seasons would have been close.

Yes, there was a brief time when Phaneuf's name was mentioned in the same breath as (albeit definitely following) Crosby's and Ovechkin's names...

[Mayo]

Originally Posted by blankall

It's hard to say that the Flames got screwed by this, as there's a reason Fox went 66th overall, and not in the first round. However, the current system is just ridiculous.

Was he otherwise expected to go that high though? I'm just digging through some old 2016 draft rankings as Fox was not a projected 1st rounder...and with no mention of signing risk as a reason why. Looks like dangerous play was his downside. Coming at a time when the shut-down Kings had just won two cups, perhaps risky D men weren't the flavour of the draft.

Seems to me like the Flames did snipe a top player here, and the quality drafting should have been rewarded.

55th here
https://www.tsn.ca/matthews-goes-wir...spect-1.511597

31st here
https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/top-10...ry?id=39091742

https://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2...hts-defenceman

Here he cracked the top 30 in 3 of 15 lists...with 27th being the highest position.
http://www.mynhldraft.com/2016-draft...raft-rankings/

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by zarrell

What about changing the rules so that NCAA players have to declare for the draft like they do in football?

I have thought about this and while it makes sense, there are a number of challenges.

Different rules for NCAA vs. major junior vs. forein players. The NFL only has the one source of talent.

In the NFL, a declaration for the draft is a permanent decision. You lose your college eligibility even if you're not picked. In the NHL, draft picks rarely play pro right after being drafted so what would these players do?

It could still work I suppose but would need to apply across all players. Maybe the rule should be if you declare for the draft, you can only return to junior/NCAA for a year.

You would have far fewer NCAA players drafted initially. In general they would be much older when drafted compared to today.

in MLB, the rules are harder. You go back into the draft the following year if unsigned however the team does get a compensatory pick.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Was that not talked about many years ago but the conclusion was it wouldnt be legal or something?



Maybe it was one of the other big 3 but i remember it at least being discussed.

Players are not eligible for the NBA or NFL drafts until they are, 19-years-old, no? Or am I misunderstanding how this works.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Players are not eligible for the NBA or NFL drafts until they are, 19-years-old, no? Or am I misunderstanding how this works.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Exceptional players go to NBA right out of high school...Kobe, Lebron etc.

But I'm sure there was talk about moving "age" eligibility and it was squashed because of the legal fallout.

Or i am just that brain damaged from too many visits to "Terry" over the years.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Nelson

My reasons are that I trust Dom Luszczyshyn. Based on GSVA, he has Adam Fox at 2.01 GSVA, which puts Adam Fox at 8th in the Hart Trophy race. He also has Adam Fox as the runaway winner for the Norris Trophy. I don't remember a Flames' draft pick ever getting to comparable heights. I guess the closest would be Gaudreau's 99 point season in 2018-2019. Maybe if you deem Giordano to be like a Flames' draft pick, then his 2018-2019 season could also be arguable? But I'm not sure if either got Hart Trophy consideration in 2018-2019.

Gaudreau had Hart consideration during 2018-2019. Maybe I'm missing something, but how does having a 2.01 GSVA put Fox in Hart contention? Isn't it voted on?

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Exceptional players go to NBA right out of high school...Kobe, Lebron etc.

But I'm sure there was talk about moving "age" eligibility and it was squashed because of the legal fallout.

Or i am just that brain damaged from too many visits to "Terry" over the years.

I believe they changed this, it is why Zion had to spend a year in college.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Exceptional players go to NBA right out of high school...Kobe, Lebron etc.

But I'm sure there was talk about moving "age" eligibility and it was squashed because of the legal fallout.

Or i am just that brain damaged from too many visits to "Terry" over the years.

It's changed. You need to be 19 in the NBA.

And I don't get the Terry reference. Google here I come.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Was that not talked about many years ago but the conclusion was it wouldnt be legal or something?

Maybe it was one of the other big 3 but i remember it at least being discussed.

The reason it went to 18 in the first place is because Ken Lineseman sued the NHL as an 18 year old.

If you'll remember, the NHL had a bit of a hybrid for a time in the late 90s and early 2000s where the draft age was actually 19 but for the reason above, if you were 18 you could "opt in." What ended up happening was most players would opt in but not any who were in or were planning to go to NCAA since the NCAA said that opting in would affect their eligibility.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

The reason it went to 18 in the first place is because Ken Lineseman sued the NHL as an 18 year old.

If you'll remember, the NHL had a bit of a hybrid for a time in the late 90s and early 2000s where the draft age was actually 19 but for the reason above, if you were 18 you could "opt in." What ended up happening was most players would opt in but not any who were in or were planning to go to NCAA since the NCAA said that opting in would affect their eligibility.

Thank you...yeah was conflating a couple different things but that was the gist.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

It's changed. You need to be 19 in the NBA.

And I don't get the Terry reference. Google here I come.

LOL...sorry....my fault.

Generic name for weed dealers of years past.

Somewhere in this thread i believe

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showth...=161082&page=6

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by lazypucker

If a player doesn't want to play for your team, there is nothing you can do really, contract or rule changes or not. Look at Eric Lindros and the Nordiques...

I think if an NHL-ready, 18-year old, generational talent was drafted out of university and pulled the same stunt, the team that drafted him would have the same option to trade the asset and still get a massive return like the Nordiques did. This is more relevant to players that are not NHL-ready and aren't risking much by holding out.

Not too many phenoms go the university route because they know they are going pro right after being drafted. For late-blooming, diamond-in-the-rough types, by the time they are NHL ready, many are close to free-agency. Teams can't sign them sooner to hedge their bets the way they can with junior players. I mean, they technically can, but then they have to worry about where to play them if they aren't developed enough for professional leagues. You risk upsetting their development, or you risk losing them. Neither option is beneficial to the team, while one of the options is often beneficial to the player.

A little OT, but on the Lindros thing, he warned the Nordiques even before he was drafted that he wouldn't play for them, so they lost no asset value. Two years of rights was worth a lot to them as an asset even if he would never play for them. There is also a good chance if he re-entered, that Quebec would be the team drafting him again. Teams that wanted him weren't going to wait 4 years until he became a free agent, and have him drafted by another team in between. More than the few months of rights by the time the university "loophole" becomes an apparent issue for most teams. Teams that are interested are not going to give up much in return because waiting it out in not a big deal.

(Not technically a loophole, I know)

[browntrout]

Canadian team are at a significant disadvantage in many ways. I have no problem with Fox using the system to his advantage, but it's a loophole, a 22 year old kid should under no terms be able to dictate where he plays, does any other league ev allow this. If the kids wants to play in the NHL have him pay his dues, like any other man or woman trying to establish their career. The NHL is allowing him to be a self centered brat,

[timun]

Originally Posted by browntrout

Canadian team are at a significant disadvantage in many ways. I have no problem with Fox using the system to his advantage, but it's a loophole, a 22 year old kid should under no terms be able to dictate where he plays, does any other league ev allow this. If the kids wants to play in the NHL have him pay his dues, like any other man or woman trying to establish their career. The NHL is allowing him to be a self centered brat,

Hypothetically a Canadian kid playing major-junior could be drafted at 18, decline signing a contract and re-enter the draft a couple years later, decline to sign a contract over another couple years, and would be in the exact same position: a UFA free to sign with anyone. It works essentially the exact same for NCAA players except that the NHL team that drafts them at 18 gets to keep their rights for four years instead of two.

[BMStrikesAgain]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This does not explain why he didn't sign in Carolina, though. At the time the Hurricanes had Faulk, Pesce and vanReimsdyk on the right side, so arguably more room for Fox. I think it is pretty well established that there was never a real option for the Flames to sign Fox. He was pretty obviously intent to play out his college career into free agency.

not that I disagree with you but they also then had dougie hamilton.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Is it really a loop hole? A junior player could not sign, re-enter the draft, and not re-sign again and become a free agent. Same 4 year time table.
The difference perhaps is a college player has more reason to complete their 4 years and become a free agent.

Has a Jr player ever done it?

Originally Posted by sureLoss

The rules have been changed so that European players can do the same thing.

Spend 4 years in Europe after being drafted and the team loses draft rights and they become free agents

Interesting. I'm not sure if those leagues have max contracts, but a quick google indicates you'd be unlikely to exceed $500k USD (except maybe KHL)...

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by timun

Hypothetically a Canadian kid playing major-junior could be drafted at 18, decline signing a contract and re-enter the draft a couple years later, decline to sign a contract over another couple years, and would be in the exact same position: a UFA free to sign with anyone. It works essentially the exact same for NCAA players except that the NHL team that drafts them at 18 gets to keep their rights for four years instead of two.

Yeah but where is he going to play after he’s 21? There’s a reason no player has done that.

[kermitology]

This is not a loophole in my mind. They're subject to the same rules as CHL and European drafted players. You take a chance on any player, they don't owe teams anything - and forcing players to sign with the team that drafted them is a bad idea.

If anything, the NCAA needs to change their rules to allow players to make money while still in the NCAA system. Similar to CHL - the contract slides if they stay in college, but they can collect a signing bonus. It's ridiculous that the NCAA does that to their players given how much money they make off of college sports.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah but where is he going to play after he’s 21? There’s a reason no player has done that.

Yup, re-entering the draft is risky unless you are sure you are going to be drafted higher and have more negotiating power. It's very rare for an overage player from junior to get drafted high and turning down a contract offer would be pretty dumb for most. By the time accepting or turning down a contract is an issue for a university player, they don't have as much to lose and often have a lot to gain.