2021: Vatican Calls Homosexuality a "Sin"

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Sliver

What would shake your allegiance then, if anything? Obviously you are Catholic based on nothing more than geography. Born in Iran, you'd be Muslim. We all would be. It's not like you investigated all available religions and settled on this one because it was more right than all the others. It's the one you happened into. They shelter pedophiles and you're still part of the organization. They've confirmed today gay people are going to hell, but you still don't seem phased by that at all. I guess ride or die?

To be fair, you are also going to hell for touching yourself when you were a raging hormonal 15 year old. Sorry about your luck.

[ben voyonsdonc]

I think the most effective way to make the Church change (in its glacial way), is to build more relationships with affirming Catholics. The greater the gulf between the institution and its followers, the greater its need to change or it will die.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

You all do realize that you can attend catholic church, have your own beliefs while not fully endorsing every single stance the church has on every single subject right? Not everything is all or nothing.

If you are supporting the Catholic church at all financially, then you are supporting their homophobic and bigoted stances and practices.

[dammage79]

It's only gay if it's two consenting people right?

Non consenting prey and rape doesn't count.

Makes sense. Ahh yes the old power paradox. We have the power so uhhh, tough noogies for you peasants.

"God" lol.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

You all do realize that you can attend catholic church, have your own beliefs while not fully endorsing every single stance the church has on every single subject right? Not everything is all or nothing.

I've always wondered how people who are religious reconcile this. So there are some stuff the church preaches that you would follow, and other stuff that you don't? Doesn't that still mean you're sinning in the eyes of God, and that you're still going to hell?

[Dion]

This would be my message to the Catholic Church:

Jesus’ statement “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her”

From this passage we learn that we do not accuse others unless we first thoroughly search our own hearts and minds to make certain that we are pure in every possible aspect. Which of course the Catholic Church is not!

[RichieRich]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

What does this mean? You know Catholics are the first and "original" Christians, right?

All Catholics are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholic.
Good "difference between Christians and Catholics". You'll find lots of reading material, enough to leave you scratching your head.
Without digging too deep I found this link basic enough for my limited time:
https://www.scripturecatholic.com/th...and-christian/

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

If you are supporting the Catholic church at all financially, then you are supporting their homophobic and bigoted stances and practices.

Sure, because hating on religion is cool. Equally important though, on a local level, the importance of giving and charity goes far beyond any of you care to acknowledge or is ever reported publicly. Churches in general and our parish locally, are the most giving, compassionate and non publicized donors to many, many public organizations such as the Red Cross, Men's and Women's Shelters (Mustard Seed, YWCA Harbor House), Food Banks (virtually single handedly support and administer the U of L student food bank) the Performing Arts (CASA) and Operation Christmas Child to name a few of the top of my head, as well as a huge supporter of minor sports through the Knights of Columbus. Plus financially supporting numerous international charitable organizations as well as charitable missions to the far northern parts of Canada (Society of St Vincent De Paul). Providing emotional and financial support to those during difficult times of need by assisting with funeral costs and preparation, providing financial support and assisting those with rehabilitation and addictions counseling, financially assisting those have have undergone floods and fires in their own homes. Volunteer hours towards parks, play grounds, schools, seniors centers and the elderly.

But focus on whatever makes you happy.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

You all do realize that you can attend catholic church, have your own beliefs while not fully endorsing every single stance the church has on every single subject right? Not everything is all or nothing.

My question to you is why would you compromise some of your beliefs so you can attend a certain Church?

I left an Evangelical Church in the late 90's because they had become hyporcrites of their beliefs.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

I've always wondered how people who are religious reconcile this. So there are some stuff the church preaches that you would follow, and other stuff that you don't? Doesn't that still mean you're sinning in the eyes of God, and that you're still going to hell?

Well perhaps, but what you may not understand is that the churches stance on issues does not mean necessarily mean thats what "they are preaching about". Believe it or not, mass does not consist of the priest standing at the front saying "gays are bad, they're going to hell" "don't jerk off" "don't worry about us molesting all the altar boys" "males are superior to females".

As I said earlier though, personally I'm a casual catholic and interpret for myself what is relevant, pertinent and applicable to myself. I cannot speak for the truly religious.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Sure, because hating on religion is cool. Equally important though, on a local level, the importance of giving and charity goes far beyond any of you care to acknowledge or is ever reported publicly. Churches in general and our parish locally, are the most giving, compassionate and non publicized donors to many, many public organizations such as the Red Cross, Men's and Women's Shelters (Mustard Seed, YWCA Harbor House), Food Banks (virtually single handedly support and administer the U of L student food bank) the Performing Arts (CASA) and Operation Christmas Child to name a few of the top of my head, as well as a huge supporter of minor sports through the Knights of Columbus. Plus financially supporting numerous international charitable organizations as well as charitable missions to the far northern parts of Canada (Society of St Vincent De Paul). Providing emotional and financial support to those during difficult times of need by assisting with funeral costs and preparation, providing financial support and assisting those with rehabilitation and addictions counseling, financially assisting those have have undergone floods and fires in their own homes. Volunteer hours towards parks, play grounds, schools, seniors centers and the elderly.

But focus on whatever makes you happy.

It doesn't make anybody happy to read today that the head of an organization with 1.3 billion people has decided gay people are going to hell. It doesn't make anybody happy to know gay people are going to be discriminated against more than they already are because of this statement the Vatican released.

I'm sure the church does a lot of great things. Lots of organizations do. That doesn't mean they get a pass for any evil they do.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Sure, because hating on religion is cool. Equally important though, on a local level, the importance of giving and charity goes far beyond any of you care to acknowledge or is ever reported publicly. Churches in general and our parish locally, are the most giving, compassionate and non publicized donors to many, many public organizations such as the Red Cross, Men's and Women's Shelters (Mustard Seed, YWCA Harbor House), Food Banks (virtually single handedly support and administer the U of L student food bank) the Performing Arts (CASA) and Operation Christmas Child to name a few of the top of my head, as well as a huge supporter of minor sports through the Knights of Columbus. Plus financially supporting numerous international charitable organizations as well as charitable missions to the far northern parts of Canada (Society of St Vincent De Paul). Providing emotional and financial support to those during difficult times of need by assisting with funeral costs and preparation, providing financial support and assisting those with rehabilitation and addictions counseling, financially assisting those have have undergone floods and fires in their own homes. Volunteer hours towards parks, play grounds, schools, seniors centers and the elderly.

But focus on whatever makes you happy.

Don't look at all the bad things we do................

You do know that non-religious people volunteer both time and $ to charity.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Sure, because hating on religion is cool.

This is some spectacular hand wavery right here... his point was that if you're financially supporting the Catholic church, you're giving money to an organization responsible for fomenting the rape of children, and then protecting and sheltering their rapists, while simultaneously passing moral judgment on gay people because of who they are and who they happen to love. That doesn't seem like a good way to be spending your money.

If your argument is that they also do a lot of good charity work in the community, fine - then perhaps your money is best directed to the many other charities helping people every day without also fomenting rape and preaching bigotry against good people. It's not like there are a shortage of less institutionally awful options for your charitable time and dollar.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Sure, because hating on religion is cool.

Organised religion does it to itself without having to hate it. Stand on a pulpit and judge others for their supposed bad things while ignoring the bad things they themselves are guilty of. It makes them all hypocrites for what they believe.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

You all do realize that you can attend catholic church, have your own beliefs while not fully endorsing every single stance the church has on every single subject right? Not everything is all or nothing.

Basic Requirements for Catholics

As a Catholic, basically you’re required to live a Christian life, pray daily, participate in the sacraments, obey the moral law, and accept the teachings of Christ and his Church. Following are the minimum requirements for Catholics:

• Attend Mass every Sunday and holy day of obligation.
• Go to confession annually if not more often or when needed.
• Receive Holy Communion during Easter. Receiving weekly or daily is encouraged, though.
• Observe laws on fasting and abstinence: one full meal on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday; not eating meat on Fridays during Lent.
• Obey the marriage laws of the Church.
• Support the Church financially and otherwise.

Knowing the faith is the first step to being Catholic, accepting the faith is the second step, and practicing the faith is the third — and most difficult — step. Obeying the rules involves appreciating the wisdom and value of the various rules and laws. And, you’re asked to put that belief into action, to practice what you believe.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by Sliver

It doesn't make anybody happy to read today that the head of an organization with 1.3 billion people has decided gay people are going to hell. It doesn't make anybody happy to know gay people are going to be discriminated against more than they already are because of this statement the Vatican released.

I'm sure the church does a lot of great things. Lots of organizations do. That doesn't mean they get a pass for any evil they do.

Never once have I ever said they do or they should. And the pope does not get to decide who goes to heaven or hell, if these such places even exist.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

The catholic church has become the whipping boy when it comes to religion however. Ask the Baptists, the Mormons, the Buddhists and Islamists what their churches stance is on homosexual relationships and the true answers will be far worse then "they are sinners'. While you are at it ask the Mormons what their stance is on those of African American heritage. I mean based on any and all religions we are all sinners. The catholic stance on this is no different then most every other religion in the world, while some other relgions still believe in stoning gays, setting them on fore or throwing them off of bridges.

I respect your personal position and your ability to disagree with some of the more hateful teachings of the catholic church.

However, this is exactly what I was talking about.

In some countries where the catholic faith is dominant and being gay is against the law, punishments range from a few years in prison or a psychiatric hospital to life in prison.

Yes, there are a handful of countries (8 I believe, primarily Islam) where punishments include whipping/lashes, stoning, and death. Congratulations, your religion is not sentencing people to death. It's also not stopping anyone from putting people in prison for life. So is that really a moral high ground you want to take? Like, we may be bad, but we're not killing people, so we're actually pretty good?

Knowing what Muslims have been through in 1st world countries, it's incredible that a Catholic might pretend for even a moment their religion is "the whipping boy." I'm sorry people make jokes while your religion of choice relegates whole sections of the population to hell and nurtures a welcoming space for the imprisonment of gay men and the rape of young boys. That must be difficult compared to being profiled, beat up, told you're not welcome, or actually killed, all of which people in other religions have actually experienced frequently in the western world because they follow that religion. Yes, I'm sure jokes hurt, but I have a difficult time believing any catholic that views themselves or their religion as victims because "jokes." Especially when the actual victims of discrimination here, the LGBTQ+ community, are being discriminated against by your religion.

If you want to talk about religions that are much worse than Catholics in their treatment of homosexuality, why not also mention the religions that are much better? United, Presbyterian, and much of Judaism outside Orthodoxy all seem to have figured it out, to name a few.

What stops a Catholic who disagrees with so much of the Catholic church from leaving and joining United or Presbyterian, I wonder? I have never really understood this. What is so good about this version of Christianity, that you would actively support an organization you disagree with instead of finding one with values closer to your own?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

This is some spectacular hand wavery right here... his point was that if you're financially supporting the Catholic church, you're giving money to an organization responsible for fomenting the rape of children, and then protecting and sheltering their rapists, while simultaneously passing moral judgment on gay people because of who they are and who they happen to love. That doesn't seem like a good way to be spending your money.

If your argument is that they also do a lot of good charity work in the community, fine - then perhaps your money is best directed to the many other charities helping people every day without also fomenting rape and preaching bigotry against good people. It's not like there are a shortage of less institutionally awful options for your charitable time and dollar.

It's always nice when someone responds before you have a chance to - but does so in a more eloquent way than you would have.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Never once have I ever said they do or they should. And the pope does not get to decide who goes to heaven or hell is these such places even exist.

If it's not the pope authorizing this statement that relegates gay people to hell, then who exactly is making the decision that this is the way?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

It's always nice when someone responds before you have a chance to - but does so in a more eloquent way than you would have.

There's always someone around to say things in a more eloquent manner... to wit:

Originally Posted by Sam Harris

I confess that, as a critic of religion, I have paid too little attention to the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church. Frankly, it always felt unsportsmanlike to shoot so large and languorous a fish in so tiny a barrel. This scandal was one of the most spectacular “own goals” in the history of religion, and there seemed to be no need to deride faith at its most vulnerable and self-abased. Even in retrospect, it is easy to understand the impulse to avert one’s eyes: Just imagine a pious mother and father sending their beloved child to the Church of a Thousand Hands for spiritual instruction, only to have him raped and terrified into silence by threats of hell. And then imagine this occurring to tens of thousands of children in our own time—and to children beyond reckoning for over a thousand years. The spectacle of faith so utterly misplaced, and so fully betrayed, is simply too depressing to think about.

But there was always more to this phenomenon that should have compelled my attention. Consider the ludicrous ideology that made it possible: The Catholic Church has spent two millennia demonizing human sexuality to a degree unmatched by any other institution, declaring the most basic, healthy, mature, and consensual behaviors taboo. Indeed, this organization still opposes the use of contraception, preferring, instead, that the poorest people on earth be blessed with the largest families and the shortest lives. As a consequence of this hallowed and incorrigible stupidity, the Church has condemned generations of decent people to shame and hypocrisy—or to Neolithic fecundity, poverty, and death by AIDS.

Add to this inhumanity the artifice of cloistered celibacy, and you now have an institution—one of the wealthiest on earth—that preferentially attracts pederasts, pedophiles, and sexual sadists into its ranks, promotes them to positions of authority, and grants them privileged access to children. Finally, consider that vast numbers of children will be born out of wedlock, and their unwed mothers vilified, wherever Church teaching holds sway—leading boys and girls by the thousands to be abandoned to Church-run orphanages only to be raped and terrorized by the clergy. Here, in this ghoulish machinery set to whirling through the ages by the opposing winds of shame and sadism, we mortals can finally glimpse how strangely perfect are the ways of the Lord.