[News] Flames expanding goalie deparment. Sigalet named director. Labarbera new goalie coach

[memphusk]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I can see it now... we will finally have our first truly great goalie since Kipper, just in time for Labarbera to start as the goalie coach. And everyone will love Labarbera the same way they hate Sigalet.

I would love for this to happen.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by memphusk

I would love for this to happen.

Every Flames fan would love for Markstrom to have a great season, but I suspect that for some posters they also hope this would somehow validate their anecdotally-formed opinions of Sigalet.

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[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I believe you are, in fact, wrong about this. I distinctly recall a story a couple years ago about how much Sigalet was pushing for the Flames to sign Rittich and get him over to NA.

To add to that, I remember reading somewhere that Sigalet was impressed with how quick Rittich was.

[Snuffleupagus]

I assume some of Sean Burke's coaching rubbed off on Labarbera and Burke is considered one of the best in the league if not the best.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Every Flames fan would love for Markstrom to have a great season, but I suspect that for some posters they also hope this would somehow validate their anecdotally-formed opinions of Sigalet.

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It was a no-win situation for Sigalet once they signed Markstrom. If Markstrom played well it would be assumed that it was all Markstrom given his play of the past few seasons. If he struggled then fans would blame Sigalet for making another goaltender worse. This is for the best and maybe management recognized with the amount invested in Markstrom they couldn't afford to screw this up and made these organization changes. I don't think any opinion on Sigalet is anecdotal as goaltending has been pretty poor post-Kipper. That's a fact that can't be disputed. It's not a matter of the team hanging on to a couple of mediocre goaltenders for too long either as Treliving tried and tried with several goaltending additions. If a team has half a decade of a poor powerplay it's not anecdotal evidence when surmising the powerplay coach isn't getting the job done. Professional sports is a results oriented business so while I understand Sigalet could be good at some aspects of his job the reality is that that goaltenders more than not were not improving under his tutelage. Results are results.

[Inglewood Jack]

If Sigalet was so good at the coaching aspect, they would have kept him involved in it since presumably there aren’t that many in that line of work to choose from. But whether management thought he was amazing or mediocre, adding more personnel to that department is smart either way, because it was starting to look like the Flames would be stuck in goalie purgatory forever unless they just happened to stumble on the next Price (and not mess up his development).

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It was a no-win situation for Sigalet once they signed Markstrom. If Markstrom played well it would be assumed that it was all Markstrom given his play of the past few seasons. If he struggled then fans would blame Sigalet for making another goaltender worse. This is for the best and maybe management recognized with the amount invested in Markstrom they couldn't afford to screw this up and made these organization changes.

So, they replaced the guy that has survived THREE coaching changes with another guy with no NHL coaching experience? The Flames were so concerned about Markstrom that they let Sigalet—whom they supposedly are loathe to let near their shiny new number-one goalie—pick his own replacement? That does not make a lick of sense, and to guess that they moved Sigalet up the chain because he was in a "no-win situation" is patently ridiculous.

The Flames don't care what you think of their goaltending coach, Erick.

I don't think any opinion on Sigalet is anecdotal as goaltending has been pretty poor post-Kipper. That's a fact that can't be disputed. It's not a matter of the team hanging on to a couple of mediocre goaltenders for too long either as Treliving tried and tried with several goaltending additions. If a team has half a decade of a poor powerplay it's not anecdotal evidence when surmising the powerplay coach isn't getting the job done. Professional sports is a results oriented business so while I understand Sigalet could be good at some aspects of his job the reality is that that goaltenders more than not were not improving under his tutelage. Results are results.

Well, then you don't understand what "anecdotal" is and is not. In your powerplay example the problem could be the coach, but it could also be the problem of having a marginal collection of players for half a decade that do not possess the skill and intelligence to execute a powerplay properly. It's an "anecdotal" observation, because it was made from casual and informal viewings from a distance. On the other hand, since I can clearly see how good or average the players are, then this pretty obviously indicates that the problem is not the coach. My observation is also anecdotal, but my knowledge about the players is still a lot more reliable than that of what the coach is doing or not doing.



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[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Inglewood Jack

If Sigalet was so good at the coaching aspect, they would have kept him involved in it since presumably there aren’t that many in that line of work to choose from...

It sure sounds like Sigalet will still be closely involved with coaching. He may no longer be doing so day-to-day on the ice with the NHL club, but Treliving's comments make it sound as though he will bein charge of systems, coaching, and development for all the goalies in the organization at every level. He will be Labarbara's boss.

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[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

So, they replaced the guy that has survived THREE coaching changes with another guy with no NHL coaching experience? The Flames were so concerned about Markstrom that they let Sigalet—whom they supposedly are loathe to let near their shiny new number-one goalie—pick his own replacement? That does not make a lick of sense, and to guess that they moved Sigalet up the chain because he was in a "no-win situation" is patently ridiculous.

The Flames don't care what you think of their goaltending coach, Erick.

[/I]
Well, then you don't understand what "anecdotal" is and is not. In your powerplay example the problem could be the coach, but it could also be the problem of having a marginal collection of players for half a decade that do not possess the skill and intelligence to execute a powerplay properly. It's an "anecdotal" observation, because it was made from casual and informal viewings from a distance. On the other hand, since I can clearly see how good or average the players are, then this pretty obviously indicates that the problem is not the coach. My observation is also anecdotal, but my knowledge about the players is still a lot more reliable than that of what the coach is doing or not doing.



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Someone woke up on the wrong side of the futon today.

[Erick Estrada]

I envy Texcritic. I wish I could put on goggles that would make me lose all objectivity of organizations I cheer for.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

He backed up Luongo. Only player still around from Babs time here is Edler... now that you greedy jackals took Tanev.

Nothing bad ever comes from putting money into a position that needs more one on one work than any other position in hockey. I think at one point in recent years the Canucks had three or four different people working with goalies in the organization at the same time, though many of them working on a part-time basis.

Isn't Edler UFA?

Don't count your chickens before they hatch...still plenty of time for the Calgary Canucks to swoop in for Edler. We need a PP1 guy anyway.

[Jacks]

He's still got a year left before UFA according to capfriendly.
https://www.capfriendly.com/players/alexander-edler

[Monahammer]

I will preface this by saying that I have nothing personal against Sigalet, but let's examine it statistically so we can shunt it out of anecdotal realm.

Sigalet began coaching duties within the flames org on the 11-12 abbotsford heat.

The year before, the Heat's primary goalie was 22 year old Leland Irving, a flames 1st round talent that put up a respectable .913% 2.30 GAA in 61 Games.

In 11-12 Leland Irving declined significantly, getting pulled many times and being limited to 39 games (some from injury, some from poor play.) 2.67 GAA and a .902%. Halfway through the season the flames acquired Dan Taylor, a successful AHL goalie, who went on to play 33 games, put up a .927% season, and 2.21 GAA.

in 12-13 Leland Irving whithered further, playing only 12 games, putting up a .884 and a 3.40 GAA. Dan Taylor had another good season, though slightly less good than previously, postin a .922%. Barry Brust was brought in, he played 33 games and managed a .911%.

Hard to track it further from here, as the next season none of the same goalies returned: Leland Irving was washed out, Dan Taylor never played in the american leagues again (?) and ditto Barry Brust (?)
The heat played 7 Different goalies that year (Ortio, Dell, Doug Carr, Reto Berra, Joey MacDonald, Olivier Roy, and Laurent Brossoit.) all of whom went on to play some games in the NHL following this. Ortio was the best, playing 37 games and posting a .926 after returning from Finland. At this point people were hoping he could be a kipper 2.0.

In 14-15 Sigalet was promoted to the Goaltending coach position with the flames. Our 3 goalies were Hiller (52 games, .918/2.36- pretty great, and improvement over his final season in Anaheim), fresh from the KHL Ramo (34 games, .912/2.60) , and Ortio (6 games, .908/2.52). Ortio had a notably worse season in the AHL, blame that on what you will.

In 15-16 Hiller fell off a cliff, limited to 26 fames with a 0.879 and a 3.51. He since returned to Switzerland and never played in the NHL again. Ramo's stats stayed relatively consistent, but underachieving (0.909/2.63 in 37) while Ortio continued to struggle making the transition (0.902/2.76 in 22). We also had old Nick Backstrom for 4 games but not worthy of counting. Ramo and Ortio both left the NHL forever as well. Gillies began playing in the AHL club, .920%

In 16-17 We mostly used the tandem of Brian Elliott and Chad Johnson, two of the leading Save % goalies in the NHL the season prior (.930 and .920 respectively.) Both struggled, seeing a relatively consistent GAA of 2.5- but having their save percentages both fall to .910. Mid road goaltending from two guys who led the league the year prior.
Both have continued to plummet in subsequent seasons. Unknown David Rittich played 1 game (.900%/3.00) and star prospect Jon Gillies played 1 game (and looked great, .964% and 1.00 GAA, .910 in 39 AHL games).

In 17/18 Treliving decided that going stat hunting didn't work, and so he wanted to try someone he had success with in the past. Enter Mike Smith, to most of our chagrin. Smith played 55 games, putting up good numbers and seemed rejuvenated. .916% and 2.65. Poor playoffs but brush that off as headcase Smitty. Star prospect Jon Gillies struggled more and more, playing 11 times with a .896% and a 2.88 GAA, however he was still looking good while in Abbotsford at the beginning of the season, where he had .917 through 39 games. Eddie Lack played 4 games and was Awful, not a shadow of the former player. Rittich showed improvement: 21 games, high GAA at 2.92, and a mediocre .904% but he was fun.

18/19 Smith became unusable most nights and our goaltending seriously held the team back again. He put up a 0.898% and 2.72 gaa in 42 games. Rittich was a much needed boon, improving again with more responsibility and putting up a respectable ..911 with a 2.61 gaa. Not league leading in any sense, but respectable most nights. Smith has never recovered to his +.905% and some would consider him currently out of the NHL.

And that brings us to 19-20. Rittich withered under the burden of leading the net, growing inconsistent with a .907% and a 2.97 gaa. Talbot showed notable improvement from his Oiler fiasco, with a .919% and 2.63gaa in 26 gp. Talbot will probably play well for Minnesota, a bit sad to see him go.

That leaves us:

1 Goalie who has shown marked improvement under Sigalet over multiple seasons (Rittich).
2 top goaltending prospects who showed promise in the AHL and then crumbled over time, coincidentally it seems after exposure to Sigalet (Irving, Gillies).
4 guys who had career- type years in their first season with Sigalet (Dan Taylor, Ortio, Mike Smith, and Cam Talbot)
5 guys who were league leaders before Sigalet who have never been able to return to that level since (Dan Taylor, Jonas Hiller, Brian Elliott, Chad Johnson, Mike Smith)
All except Rittich declined statistically in their 2nd+ seasons with Sigalet. Rittich saw a decline in the 3rd
And 5 guys who never even played in NA again after sigalet: Taylor, Brust, Hiller, Ramo, Ortio.

Not a flattering picture.

[Erick Estrada]

It's important to add that nobody here believes it's all on Sigalet. None of the goaltenders above were elite and some were on the decline regardless of Sigalet's input. The issue is that the results were simply never that good and when that happens over a lengthy duration you have to look at all the contributing factors outside of just the players. Maybe we can't prove Sigalet was a bad coach but conversely nobody can prove he was a good coach. Change here is clearly the best outcome.

[topfiverecords]

Sigalet was just on Fan 590 Hockey Central at Noon. Podcast usually is available shortly after the end of the hour for those wanting to listen.

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It sure sounds like Sigalet will still be closely involved with coaching. He may no longer be doing so day-to-day on the ice with the NHL club, but Treliving's comments make it sound as though he will bein charge of systems, coaching, and development for all the goalies in the organization at every level. He will be Labarbara's boss.

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I doubt he'd be the kind of boss to breathe down LaBarbera's neck and tell him how to do his job (especially with that kinda NHL resume), so that point is kinda moot.

[djsFlames]

I like Edler and would take him.

Make it happen, for the Blaster meltdown!

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I envy Texcritic. I wish I could put on goggles that would make me lose all objectivity of organizations I cheer for.

I have made my position on this clear a number of times, but it obviously requires a refresher since you somehow think I have lost objectivity.

First, I agree that there has been a problem with Flames goaltending for several years now. Second, I would accept that Jordan Sigalet is pedestrian goaltending coach if someone could provide convincing evidence to show this (I just haven't seen anything I would consider "convincing evidence"). Third, I am neither convinced that Sigalet is a great coach nor a below average coach; I simply lack the requisite skills and information from which to make that determination—but most importantly, so does everyone else on this site.

In the end, admitting that I don't know is not "losing all objectivity." It is being honest about what I know and don't know.

[bax]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I will preface this by saying that I have nothing personal against Sigalet, but let's examine it statistically so we can shunt it out of anecdotal realm.

Sigalet began coaching duties within the flames org on the 11-12 abbotsford heat.

The year before, the Heat's primary goalie was 22 year old Leland Irving, a flames 1st round talent that put up a respectable .913% 2.30 GAA in 61 Games.

In 11-12 Leland Irving declined significantly, getting pulled many times and being limited to 39 games (some from injury, some from poor play.) 2.67 GAA and a .902%. Halfway through the season the flames acquired Dan Taylor, a successful AHL goalie, who went on to play 33 games, put up a .927% season, and 2.21 GAA.

in 12-13 Leland Irving whithered further, playing only 12 games, putting up a .884 and a 3.40 GAA. Dan Taylor had another good season, though slightly less good than previously, postin a .922%. Barry Brust was brought in, he played 33 games and managed a .911%.

Hard to track it further from here, as the next season none of the same goalies returned: Leland Irving was washed out, Dan Taylor never played in the american leagues again (?) and ditto Barry Brust (?)
The heat played 7 Different goalies that year (Ortio, Dell, Doug Carr, Reto Berra, Joey MacDonald, Olivier Roy, and Laurent Brossoit.) all of whom went on to play some games in the NHL following this. Ortio was the best, playing 37 games and posting a .926 after returning from Finland. At this point people were hoping he could be a kipper 2.0.

In 14-15 Sigalet was promoted to the Goaltending coach position with the flames. Our 3 goalies were Hiller (52 games, .918/2.36- pretty great, and improvement over his final season in Anaheim), fresh from the KHL Ramo (34 games, .912/2.60) , and Ortio (6 games, .908/2.52). Ortio had a notably worse season in the AHL, blame that on what you will.

In 15-16 Hiller fell off a cliff, limited to 26 fames with a 0.879 and a 3.51. He since returned to Switzerland and never played in the NHL again. Ramo's stats stayed relatively consistent, but underachieving (0.909/2.63 in 37) while Ortio continued to struggle making the transition (0.902/2.76 in 22). We also had old Nick Backstrom for 4 games but not worthy of counting. Ramo and Ortio both left the NHL forever as well. Gillies began playing in the AHL club, .920%

In 16-17 We mostly used the tandem of Brian Elliott and Chad Johnson, two of the leading Save % goalies in the NHL the season prior (.930 and .920 respectively.) Both struggled, seeing a relatively consistent GAA of 2.5- but having their save percentages both fall to .910. Mid road goaltending from two guys who led the league the year prior.
Both have continued to plummet in subsequent seasons. Unknown David Rittich played 1 game (.900%/3.00) and star prospect Jon Gillies played 1 game (and looked great, .964% and 1.00 GAA, .910 in 39 AHL games).

In 17/18 Treliving decided that going stat hunting didn't work, and so he wanted to try someone he had success with in the past. Enter Mike Smith, to most of our chagrin. Smith played 55 games, putting up good numbers and seemed rejuvenated. .916% and 2.65. Poor playoffs but brush that off as headcase Smitty. Star prospect Jon Gillies struggled more and more, playing 11 times with a .896% and a 2.88 GAA, however he was still looking good while in Abbotsford at the beginning of the season, where he had .917 through 39 games. Eddie Lack played 4 games and was Awful, not a shadow of the former player. Rittich showed improvement: 21 games, high GAA at 2.92, and a mediocre .904% but he was fun.

18/19 Smith became unusable most nights and our goaltending seriously held the team back again. He put up a 0.898% and 2.72 gaa in 42 games. Rittich was a much needed boon, improving again with more responsibility and putting up a respectable ..911 with a 2.61 gaa. Not league leading in any sense, but respectable most nights. Smith has never recovered to his +.905% and some would consider him currently out of the NHL.

And that brings us to 19-20. Rittich withered under the burden of leading the net, growing inconsistent with a .907% and a 2.97 gaa. Talbot showed notable improvement from his Oiler fiasco, with a .919% and 2.63gaa in 26 gp. Talbot will probably play well for Minnesota, a bit sad to see him go.

That leaves us:

1 Goalie who has shown marked improvement under Sigalet over multiple seasons (Rittich).
2 top goaltending prospects who showed promise in the AHL and then crumbled over time, coincidentally it seems after exposure to Sigalet (Irving, Gillies).
4 guys who had career- type years in their first season with Sigalet (Dan Taylor, Ortio, Mike Smith, and Cam Talbot)
5 guys who were league leaders before Sigalet who have never been able to return to that level since (Dan Taylor, Jonas Hiller, Brian Elliott, Chad Johnson, Mike Smith)
All except Rittich declined statistically in their 2nd+ seasons with Sigalet. Rittich saw a decline in the 3rd
And 5 guys who never even played in NA again after sigalet: Taylor, Brust, Hiller, Ramo, Ortio.

Not a flattering picture.

Appreciate the work that went into this post, but I can't help but think this is a lot of stat digging that doesn't really prove anything one way or the other.

There is a ton of mediocre to bad goalies on that list- are we really going to blame Sigalet because journeymen guys like Barry Brust, and Dan Taylor didn't pan out? Hiller and Smith were all on the back half of their careers when they got here- best days behind them for sure.

Talbot, Elliot, Ramo, Rittich, Johnson? Capable of playing great in stretches, but none of these guys have been consistently great number 1 goalies anywhere.

Not to mention we are looking purely at individual goalie stats which almost never tell the full story. How good was the team? What was their defensive structure? Did the goalies get hung out to dry? Without watching the games it's really tough to know anything.

This also glosses over some serious injuries guys have battled through. Rittich has been injured in the back half of both seasons, Gillies was never the same after his hip surgery, etc.

I don't think the difference between Leland Irving being a bust and a great NHL goalie was Jordan Sigalet.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I have made my position on this clear a number of times, but it obviously requires a refresher since you somehow think I have lost objectivity.

First, I agree that there has been a problem with Flames goaltending for several years now. Second, I would accept that Jordan Sigalet is pedestrian goaltending coach if someone could provide convincing evidence to show this (I just haven't seen anything I would consider "convincing evidence"). Third, I am neither convinced that Sigalet is a great coach nor a below average coach; I simply lack the requisite skills and information from which to make that determination—but most importantly, so does everyone else on this site.

In the end, admitting that I don't know is not "losing all objectivity." It is being honest about what I know and don't know.

Are you trying to argue that there is no objective way for a non-insider or team member to correctly analyze coaching performance at the NHL level? I disagree. Much like any "arcane" job performance task, there are still statistical KPIs that you can generate to track performance. I don't think there are any KPIs that you could assign to the last decade of flames organization goaltending, which Sigalet has been a big part of, that would come out positive. Here it is actually fairly easy to generate some because the field of competitors is obvious: whether it be a set threshold # for goaltender performance. ie. over .915%, under 2.5 gaa, # of prospect goaltenders developed relative to peers over 5 years, or less precise but say "top 10 goaltending statistics in x category"... none of these would be met by the flames over the last 10 years.

Your steadfast denialism of our ability to judge coaching is what made me delve into this more, so I hold you to blame for why I now seem like I hate Jordan Sigalet.