Calgary Flames General Manager Ranking - #1

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Jury is still out on Tre- I am not sure we should include him in these rankings as his body of work is not complete nor really advanced enough to determine success.

Aside from Cliff Fletcher it is a pretty dismal list, and likely explains why our club has been mostly mediocre (outside of Iginla and Kipper carrying us on their back) for the last 30 years.

Work in progress? Does he need another six seasons?

My list

Fletcher
Coates
Sutter
Treliving
Reisborough
Feaster
Button

Going to be tough for BT to break into the top 3 unless he can pull a 1C put of thin air. He missed out on O'Reilly and that was probably his chance other than the Bennett pick. Schenn would've been sweet too. Monahan/Schenn as 1a/1b might have actually worked considering their different skillsets.

Six seasons is enough time to build a SC contender. Sutter at least delivered a SC runner up and made some solid moves before going 'insane'. His teams in 04, 06, and 09 were very good to great, better than anything BT has done aside from 2019 which was pretty ridiculous I'll admit but was followed by the worst playoff showing I remember since Detroit in 2007. Colorado was one of the worst showings in franchise history actually when you consider the expectations that come with being the top seed. Even in that disaster of a series with Detroit, the team had much more gumption, they were just totally overmatched. Losing to an 8 seed really tarnished the season in my eyes, especially the way we lost. It was embarrassing and it really put a #### cherry on top of the season. Detroit was supposed to win in 07, that was the difference for me I think.

Sutter's 2nd round pick for Kiprusoff trade was one of the greatest trades in franchise history. Only star goalie in franchise history aside from Vernon. Think about that. Other trades were good too. The trade for Warrener was a much needed move that showed you could be forced into a trade and get decent value. Reinprecht was a solid add in that trade, but was later squandered. Langkow was a sweet move too, along with the 04 additions in Niemenen, Simon and Nilson. Tanguay was a good trade. Huselius off waivers basically was amazing. The stuart trade was value, just a bad coach. He did some nice things but couldn't figure out that next step and went crazy (or whatever). Even the first Jokinen trade had the hockey world basically worshipping the guy. How about Bouwmeester as a UFA? He was looked at as a great GM at that point. What happened next? I have suspicions, but I will always be thankful for those first five seasons he produced, they were by far the best run of seasons since the Fletcher years. People forget how he was perceived 03-09, focusing only on how it ended and the perception of him now based mostly on a weird couple of days that will never be explained.

At least Sutter has had a franchise altering trade to his name. BT is just a slow burning nothing. History will remember him as failing to have a successful rebuild and being retained too long. He seems nice enough but he has us spinning our wheels. I swear if we would've avoided trades and big ufa signings for the last 6 years and just made our 7 picks each year, we'd be no worse off. Just my opinion, but what has BT really done besides ship out picks for duds (except Hamilton) and sign bad ufa deals that negate his great rfa deals? Even the Hamilton trades were expensive I dont care what anyone says. They were fair for both but still expensive. Just because Boston wasted those picks, it doesn't mean the trade was less fair.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Organizational health is based on the asset base. And through Sutter's years the drafting creating an asset deficit, that the team has struggled with since. That's why there is a constant borrowing from the future, by trading picks and what not.

How can you blame Sutter for the current pick deficit when during Treliving's tenure we've made 35/42 picks, with Treliving moving 17 picks in trades? Any deficit during his time can be chalked up to the Hamilton, Hamonic and Smith deals.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

How can you blame Sutter for the current pick deficit when during Treliving's tenure we've made 35/42 picks, with Treliving moving 17 picks in trades? Any deficit during his time can be chalked up to the Hamilton, Hamonic and Smith deals.

It has felt much worse than that. He misjudged the rebuild and thought the team was much better than it was, hence accelerating things. That's on him. The team should've made 45-50 picks in that span imo. We would be much further ahead especially if our scouts are as good as our fans claim.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

How can you blame Sutter for the current pick deficit when during Treliving's tenure we've made 35/42 picks, with Treliving moving 17 picks in trades? Any deficit during his time can be chalked up to the Hamilton, Hamonic and Smith deals.

Sutter both traded picks and didn’t do much with the ones he kept
Double whammy

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Sutter both traded picks and didn’t do much with the ones he kept

Double whammy

At least his teams were widely regarded as SC contenders from 04-10. I'm not sure what we are now, but we aren't contenders, and there is little hope of that changing barring some crazy good luck.

We actually had it really good under Sutter for years. Yes his drafting sucked, but he built teams that had a better shot than the teams that BT has constructed.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Sutter both traded picks and didn’t do much with the ones he kept
Double whammy

Ok? But that has nothing to do with any current deficit.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

At least his teams were widely regarded as SC contenders from 04-10. I'm not sure what we are now, but we aren't contenders, and there is little hope of that changing barring some crazy good luck.

We actually had it really good under Sutter for years. Yes his drafting sucked, but he built teams that had a better shot than the teams that BT has constructed.

The fact that none of Sutter's teams made it out of the first round since the miracle run in 2004 doesn't align with this assertion. I see no good reason to claim that his teams were any better than Treliving's—to this point they have all been pretty underwhelming.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

Ok? But that has nothing to do with any current deficit.

I disagree
The asset base issue goes back to his tenure and even earlier
It certainly has relevance

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I disagree
The asset base issue goes back to his tenure and even earlier
It certainly has relevance

So even though the current GM has traded away more than double the picks we've been short during his tenure, it's Sutter's fault.

I'm no mathematician but that just doesn't add up to me.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

The fact that none of Sutter's teams made it out of the first round since the miracle run in 2004 doesn't align with this assertion. I see no good reason to claim that his teams were any better than Treliving's—to this point they have all been pretty underwhelming.

It's not an assertion. The fact that those teams disappointed doesn't mean they weren't considered top 10 teams by many going into those seasons. Unless I'm misremembering, might be I guess. The disappointing results dont mean they weren't solid teams. The 06 and 09 teams could've won cups, they were good enough, just got unlucky imo. Get by Anaheim in 06 and we slaughter EDM I'm certain of it. 09 we looked godly until injuries destroyed us.

07 and 08 were Sutter's worst teams in that five year stretch and yet still better than anything BT has produced aside from the impossible to repeat 2019 team

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I disagree

The asset base issue goes back to his tenure and even earlier

It certainly has relevance

At some point you have to forget about the past. BT had a chance to build something from nothing, as many GMs have had in the past. If anything, the only constant is ownership. Ask them what the deal with selling the future is. In 2013, BT had a chance to reset it all. There was expectations of a painful rebuild, the fans embraced it even. Suddenly it's 2015 and we are SC contenders based on a million come from behind wins? It was a pivotal moment, he was right with the Glencross and Russell moves. Why did he change course? Why accelerate the rebuild? Because of the fumes of success? He's the GM, he needs to see through that.

[Jacks]

I would be happy to vote Sutter next if he hadn't left such a barren wasteland behind. Entertaining team that just wasn't quite good enough for a few years and a mess once the joyride was over. That drafting record was atrocious. I remember when he picked Chucko, just ridiculous.

Treliving would be a lot better if he just stuck with the rebuild for another couple of years and let Hartley finish his contract. He was handed a clean slate with tons of cap, good contracts, lots of picks and prospects in the pipe and today we are back to being a mediocre team. His trading of high picks and terrible UFA deals probably puts him in 4th place.

Risebrough and Button were morons who should be the last 2 places.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

So even though the current GM has traded away more than double the picks we've been short during his tenure, it's Sutter's fault.

I'm no mathematician but that just doesn't add up to me.

This has been an issue going back decades, to the end of Fletcher's era.
Just because I'm outlining the weaknesses of Sutter doesn't mean it's "all his fault".
Recall I was replying to your post that said it has "nothing to do with the current deficit".

It does. It absolutely does.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

At some point you have to forget about the past. BT had a chance to build something from nothing, as many GMs have had in the past. If anything, the only constant is ownership. Ask them what the deal with selling the future is. In 2013, BT had a chance to reset it all. There was expectations of a painful rebuild, the fans embraced it even. Suddenly it's 2015 and we are SC contenders based on a million come from behind wins? It was a pivotal moment, he was right with the Glencross and Russell moves. Why did he change course? Why accelerate the rebuild? Because of the fumes of success? He's the GM, he needs to see through that.

This entire thread is about looking back at the past!
Look I don't disagree that it was a mistake to accelerate the re-build.
But we are talking about the impacts of previous tenures on the current state of the franchise. And Sutter's giving away of assets, and horrendous draft record is one of (not the only) reasons why this franchise has been asset poor since the early 90s.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

This has been an issue going back decades, to the end of Fletcher's era.
Just because I'm outlining the weaknesses of Sutter doesn't mean it's "all his fault".
Recall I was replying to your post that said it has "nothing to do with the current deficit".

It does. It absolutely does.

Except it doesn't. Once a deficit is gone, you can no longer blame the past. Blaming Sutter for this is like blaming Getty for Alberta's current debt.

[Strange Brew]

I’m good with debating where Sutter and Treliving fit in the all time list of Flames GM’s. But being more critical of Sutter than Treliving for the current state of the franchise is axe grinding IMO. 10 years is more than enough time to build organizational assets.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

Except it doesn't. Once a deficit is gone, you can no longer blame the past. Blaming Sutter for this is like blaming Getty for Alberta's current debt.

The deficit was never gone
It has been there for decades with this franchise which is why they constantly steal for Peter to pay Paul
The life of a franchise doesn’t start when a gm changes. It’s a continuum. What the previous regimes do impacts the future regimes

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

This entire thread is about looking back at the past!

Look I don't disagree that it was a mistake to accelerate the re-build.

But we are talking about the impacts of previous tenures on the current state of the franchise. And Sutter's giving away of assets, and horrendous draft record is one of (not the only) reasons why this franchise has been asset poor since the early 90s.

I mean as far as BT is concerned. BT was allowed to start from nothing. Expectations were low. The asset base he has built since is underwhelming. That's all I'm saying.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The deficit was never gone
It has been there for decades with this franchise which is why they constantly steal for Peter to pay Paul
The life of a franchise doesn’t start when a gm changes. It’s a continuum. What the previous regimes do impacts the future regimes

I never claimed it started new with a new GM, I'm saying more than enough was done to eliminate that deficit by people after Sutter. I literally showed that if Treliving hadn't traded so many picks, there would have easily been a surplus. Treliving eliminated and draft pick deficit and then created a new one, albeit a very small one because he's supplemented the loss of picks with adding NCAA and European free agents.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I’m good with debating where Sutter and Treliving fit in the all time list of Flames GM’s. But being more critical of Sutter than Treliving for the current state of the franchise is axe grinding IMO. 10 years is more than enough time to build organizational assets.

Any discussion about gms will have all sorts of axe grinding
Plenty of grinding against the current gm too