Coaching, leadership and a top 5 list

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

He inherited Giordano, Brodie, monahan, gaudreau, backlund, ferland as the primary core.

In 7 years, I don't see much of an improvement on the core, aside from Lindholm.

He's not done much....

In addition to Lindholm, he’s added Tkachuk, Andersson, Valimaki, Rittich and Mangiapane to that core. These are valuable pieces that one could argue represent a new and improved core on their own.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

In addition to Lindholm, he’s added Tkachuk, Andersson, Valimaki, Rittich and Mangiapane to that core. These are valuable pieces that one could argue represent a new and improved core on their own.

Depends how you define improvement I guess. Team has been pretty mediocre to bad for over a calendar year now.

And Mangiapane a core player? Top 6 deployment, on pace for 28 points.

Wow. Does the G in GM stand for Genius?

(I think there may be some homer lenses in those spectacles)

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Depends how you define improvement I guess. Team has been pretty mediocre to bad for over a calendar year now.

And Mangiapane a core player? Top 6 deployment, on pace for 28 points.

Wow. Does the G in GM stand for Genius?

(I think there may be some homer lenses in those spectacles)

2017/18: 0 points in 10 games (0 PPG)
2018/19: 13 points in 44 games (0.3 PPG)
2019/20: 29 point pace for 82 games (0.35 PPG)

There’s definite progression. And he’s hardly had top 6 deployment. One time in the last 20 games he’s had more than 16:00 TOI.

He’s only 23 and has a lot of potential. He could easily be a “core” player in another year or two.

[Monahammer]

Lol hilarious the dude who thinks Bennett still has growth potential is calling others out for being Homers.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Treliving has been here for 7 years now.

That's a weird way to round 5 years 9 months...

[gt4flames]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

That's a weird way to round 5 years 9 months...

7 years give or take 450 days

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

That's a weird way to round 5 years 9 months...

Apologies. I read that some where else on CP or twitter.

My take is completely wrong. If you can't take a rebuilding team in ~ 6 years to being a contender, well that is totally different than 7 years.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

In addition to Lindholm, he’s added Tkachuk, Andersson, Valimaki, Rittich and Mangiapane to that core. These are valuable pieces that one could argue represent a new and improved core on their own.

He's also prematurely traded out 1st and 2nd round picks when the team wasn't ready to really dig themselves out of a rebuild.

Tkatchuk deserves no credit. It was utter failure of a year resulting in a top 5 pick. We really want to applaud him for that?

Hamonic deal was idiotic. Hamilton deal less so, considering we did get Lindholm out of it. But I would argue that the flames would have a WAY better core had they made neither of these trades and just drafted with those picks.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

2017/18: 0 points in 10 games (0 PPG)
2018/19: 13 points in 44 games (0.3 PPG)
2019/20: 29 point pace for 82 games (0.35 PPG)

There’s definite progression. And he’s hardly had top 6 deployment.. One time in the last 20 games he’s had more than 16:00 TOI.

He’s only 23 and has a lot of potential. He could easily be a “core” player in another year or two.

?

His regular linemates are Tkachuk and Lindholm, man. That’s top 6 deployment, arguably top 3.

28 point pace is not what you have on the top line of a contending team

He may grow to be a ‘core’ piece .. but right now he is a small guy that just had an 11 game pointless streak and ends up on the ice and behind the play multiple times a game

I appreciate the effort but maybe the place to hone his craft is not in the top 6

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

And Mangiapane a core player? Top 6 deployment, on pace for 28 points.

I hope you're not confusing line deployment with role.

Mangiapane doesn't play on a powerplay unit.
Mangiapane is 7th in 5v5 icetime on the team.
Mangiapane is 2nd in 5v5 points per minute on the team. Minute per minute he is outproducing Tkachuk and Lindholm.

Just saying.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I hope you're not confusing line deployment with role.

Mangiapane doesn't play on a powerplay unit.
Mangiapane is 7th in 5v5 icetime on the team.
Mangiapane is 2nd in 5v5 points per minute on the team. Minute per minute he is outproducing Tkachuk and Lindholm.

Just saying.

Well are you ‘just saying’ that you found a stat that leads you to conclude that the guy who had an 11 game pointless streak is arguably better than the all star and future captain?

Without looking it up, I will tell you what I expect. I expect that the differences are negligible. By virtue of being mainly deployed with them, he will be the beneficiary of that and likely have similar numbers for that portion, give or take, then we are splitting hairs, about, what, that Tkachuk was unproductive with Frolik?

That may tell you that Mangiapane was more productive offensively than Frolik this year. (Single example but apply the concept to other linemates in general)

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Well are you ‘just saying’ that you found a stat that leads you to conclude that the guy who had an 11 game pointless streak is arguably better than the all star and future captain?

No.

I am just saying that the player you are claiming has top 6 deployment does not, in the terms that relate to top six production (powerplay, 3v3, etc... even 5v5).

I am also just saying that a 28 point pace is not unimpressive given the context he is playing in. He has 18 5v5 points and our best players have 20 in more more minutes.

I don't really think points tell a great story. But when you talk about the player being on pace for 28 points and act as if that's a knock on his skillset or capability level.... what are you even saying?

As for comments about skill, I made none. But I will now. Better, or not, mangiapane is a key component of his line. He's not a 3rd wheel picking up gimme points playing with two superstars. Many of the goals produced by that line are created by mangiapane. Pointless streak or not (as if points aren't prone to high variance).

[shadowlord]

Mangiapane has 9 points in 26 games of top line or top-6 deployment. 6 of those 9 points came against the Oilers.

Advanced stats may paint a different picture, but players in the top-6 need to produce offence, especially after 26 games.

[Dan403]

I've been watching since the early 80's. Treliving is our best GM since Fletcher.

[Abatedmean]

When we first got Hamonic and paired him with Brodie, Brodie was the whipping boy and everyone always hated him. Then he got moved to Gio, and he has looked better, espicially this season. Whether thats because of Gio or not is up for debate, but when he moved it, Hanifin moved into Brodie's spot, with Hamonic. He has not had a great two years with us now. Im starting to think Hanifin may not be the problem, perhaps Hamonic is just not a very good partner to be paired with. Before we trade Hanifin, I would really want to see him paired with Anderson or another defencemen.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Dan403

I've been watching since the early 80's. Treliving is our best GM since Fletcher.

Yeah but we don't play against past Flames teams, we play against current NHL teams.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

No.

I am just saying that the player you are claiming has top 6 deployment does not, in the terms that relate to top six production (powerplay, 3v3, etc... even 5v5).

I am also just saying that a 28 point pace is not unimpressive given the context he is playing in. He has 18 5v5 points and our best players have 20 in more more minutes.

I don't really think points tell a great story. But when you talk about the player being on pace for 28 points and act as if that's a knock on his skillset or capability level.... what are you even saying?

As for comments about skill, I made none. But I will now. Better, or not, mangiapane is a key component of his line. He's not a 3rd wheel picking up gimme points playing with two superstars. Many of the goals produced by that line are created by mangiapane. Pointless streak or not (as if points aren't prone to high variance).

There is no real knock on the player. The knock I suppose is on the concept of applauding Tre for adding Mangiapane to the “core”. I just found that funny

Slice and dice the stats as you wish. Points do tell a story for a guy deployed with the two best forwards on the team. The 11 game pointless streak was a real thing.

Points matter because hockey games are won by outscoring the opponent. For the 11 consecutive games Mangiapane contributed zero points, he didn’t help the team much in the way of scoring

Enjoy what the player does, as you will, but it’s with a set of homer glasses that one calls him a core player and applauds it

* also, many of our “best players” have been relatively unimpressive this year

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Abatedmean

When we first got Hamonic and paired him with Brodie, Brodie was the whipping boy and everyone always hated him. Then he got moved to Gio, and he has looked better, espicially this season. Whether thats because of Gio or not is up for debate, but when he moved it, Hanifin moved into Brodie's spot, with Hamonic. He has not had a great two years with us now. Im starting to think Hanifin may not be the problem, perhaps Hamonic is just not a very good partner to be paired with. Before we trade Hanifin, I would really want to see him paired with Anderson or another defencemen.

Hanifin could use a better partner and could also use some coaching as he has been burned pretty badly in one on one situations lately

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Dan403

I've been watching since the early 80's. Treliving is our best GM since Fletcher.

Well Ken Holland is probably the best GM the Oilers have had since Sather. That says more about the quality of Flames GM's after Fletcher than it says anything else seeing the Flames are one of the least successful organizations in the NHL getting into the 2nd round of the playoffs only twice since winning the cup in 1989.

[Geeoff]

My strat would be to let this team do what it does this season, get some picks at the deadline for the expiring UFAs if they can't be re-signed. Make big moves in the off-season