Can Ryan take on Backlund’s role; is Backlund who we trade?

[GioforPM]

a. Frolik plus a 1st rounder is laughable. Frolik is still a useful player to a number of teams.

b. 9-10 to sign Mangiapane and Tkachuk is absolutely top end pricing. It assumes max term for Tkachuk, which is probably not happening. The whole thing may well be closer to $8.5, knowing Treliving.

[VilleN]

Personally, I think this talk of needing to trade Backlund for cap space is dumb. Frolik is the guy we're trading if we need space. He's useful, has one year left, and his cap hit is right in line with what it should be. There are a ton of ways to make a Frolik deal work, before you entertain the idea of trading a core piece for nothing but cap space. For example:
- Frolik + a 3rd (if you're a team with space, why wouldn't you take a free pick for a year of decent veteran player?)
If that doesn't work:
- Frolik + 3rd and 1-2 mil retained.
Or:
Frolik + 2nd
Or: Frolik + 2nd 1-2 mil retained.

I would do ANY one of those deals before trading Backlund, and I think it would probably only take one of the less aggressive deals of those 3.

[Hackey]

I like of the idea of Kadri centering the 2nd line with Tkachum and Bennett and having Backlund in a shut down/scoring 3rd line with Frolik.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Hackey

I like of the idea of Kadri centering the 2nd line with Tkachum and Bennett and having Backlund in a shut down/scoring 3rd line with Frolik.

Sadly they missed the boat on that one

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Sadly they missed the boat on that one

It's more like the boat didn't want to dock. The team didn't miss the boat, the boat didn't want to come.

[FanIn80]

The point of this discussion was never meant to be “does Backlund suck” and/or “do we dump him for cap space.”

I made two assertions:
- 1. We need to acquire cap space.
- 2. Trading Frolik would really only get us cap space; where as trading Backlund would get cap space plus a usable asset in return.

I then posed two questions:
- 1. Do we have a player that can fill enough of Backlund’s role to make moving Backlund out feasible.
- 2. Is Ryan that player?

Some of the points I had hoped were implied within the context of my post:
- Backlund should be a great #3C, but we’re forced to deploy him as an “average” #2C.
- Ryan is also a great #3C; while he would be a below average #2C, is it far enough from where Backlund is that it makes the move too risky?

For clarity, I really like Backlund, but I consider him a Pittsburgh-era Jordan Staal. Probably the best #3C in the league, but doesn’t have enough offensive ability to be strong #2C.

Second lines need to be almost as much about offence as first lines are. Not every team can have a Bergeron, (Peter) Forsberg, Fedorov or Datsyuk that can shut teams down without sacrificing offence. You can’t ice a one-line offensive threat anymore. The second line has to be a threat to score almost as often as the first line is. That’s how you escape shutdown hockey. If a team shuts your first line down, your second line wins the game. When teams adjust to focus on your second line, now your first line is able to operate.

I think we have a very complimentary second line that has a very good top-line winger, an average third line winger and potentially the best third line C in the game. That’s a second line that looks like 1A 2B 3B, when it should be really be nothing but 1A/Bs and 2As.

[blender]

Following your logic seems to lead to the notion that Backlund and Ryan are approximately the same level of player, and I don't think that is the case.
I also don't think that Backlund is not a good 2C. I think he is quite good in his role, and that the Flames do not have anyone on the roster to replace him. Except maybe Lindholm, but there is no one to replace him, so it's a moot point.

[Textcritic]

Last year Mikael Backlund ranked #40 among all centres in ES scoring. Considering that a handful if those players don’t play the position as listed, this certainly has him positioned higher than that. Backlund’s offensive ability appears to be just fine for his role on the second line.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FanIn80]

So maybe Ryan isn’t the guy to fill in for Backlund. Maybe that guy is Lindholm.

Trade Frolik for $4M cap space and a low draft pick
Gaudreau Monahan Lindholm
Tkachuk Backlund Bennett
Lucic Ryan Mangiapane
Dube Jankowski Czarnik

Trade Backlund for $2M cap space and $3M winger
Guadreau Monahan Tkachuk
[$3M winger] Lindholm Bennett
Lucic Ryan Frolik
Mangiapne Jankowski Dube

Trade Backlund for $5M cap space and a high draft pick
Guadreau Monahan Tkachuk
Mangiapane Lindholm Bennett
Lucic Ryan Frolik
Dube Jankowski Czarnik

[FanIn80]

After typing all that out, I like the first option best.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

So maybe Ryan isn’t the guy to fill in for Backlund. Maybe that guy is Lindholm.

Trade Frolik for $4M cap space and a low draft pick
Gaudreau Monahan Lindholm
Tkachuk Backlund Bennett
Lucic Ryan Mangiapane
Dube Jankowski Czarnik

Trade Backlund for $2M cap space and $3M winger
Guadreau Monahan Tkachuk
[$3M winger] Lindholm Bennett
Lucic Ryan Frolik
Mangiapne Jankowski Dube

Trade Backlund for $5M cap space and a high draft pick
Guadreau Monahan Tkachuk
Mangiapane Lindholm Bennett
Lucic Ryan Frolik
Dube Jankowski Czarnik

Don't like Bennett on 2nd line for any of those. He's bottom 6. Too bad Neal didn't pan out as we are missing a top 6 winger especially if Lindholm ever moves to center.

[Strange Brew]

At this point it’s highly unlikely someone is taking on all of Frolik’s salary unless there is more involved in the trade IMO.

[activeStick]

I get that Backlund doesn't dazzle like some centers do, but those other centers also don't have the defensive awareness that Backlund has (and he's one of the best). Ryan can't replace Backlund, as his offensive game is even worse than Backlund's. I also think that Backlund's offensive awareness is underrated by many simply because he doesn't have the speed and dangles that others do.

Lindholm could probably reasonably slide into Backlund's role but then you split up one of the best lines in the league and I don't think the Flames should touch that line.

Keep Backlund.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

At this point it’s highly unlikely someone is taking on all of Frolik’s salary unless there is more involved in the trade IMO.

Why not? I have to disagree.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Why not? I have to disagree.

Because he's not a player a team is going to go out of their way to acquire.

Good stats with Backlund/Tkachuk but a steep drop off without them. Cap, age, skill combination suggests he's a bottom 6 player.

While his salary is less than his cap, he's still not exactly cheap as a 3rd or 4th line player at ~3 million.

Plus some other team is likely to offer at least as good a player or a significant incentive to take a worse player to get themselves under the cap, so why do Calgary a favour?

There were players as good or better than Frolik available as free agents. Brassard for example just signed for 1.2 and he's only a season removed from scoring 21 goals.

Why give up anything at all for Frolik when you could just sign Pominville or Brian Boyle or Justin Williams or Riley Sheahan or Tomas Vanek etc etc to a 1 year deal for less salary and way less cap?

Frolik also has a no trade clause which I have to believe is causing an issue right now as well. So you're dealing with a pool of 20 teams, and those 20 teams have to both want the player and have the 4 million in capspace available to take him on. There are maybe 2 teams that hit all those categories. If Frolik has been strategic about his no trade clause and given the team a list of the 10 teams with the most capspace, the Flames may be proverbially ####ed on that one.

It's a buyers market.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Why not? I have to disagree.

I’m talking about moving him with no salary coming back. Who is taking on $4.3 million at this point? Only a few teams can even do it and if it was as easy as trading Frolik for a pick, it would have happened by now IMO.

[FanIn80]

Exactly. I was being optimistic about “Frolik for a low pick.” I was really thinking it would be “Frolik for a low pick and either a $1.5M contract coming back or some $$ retained.”

The whole reason I even made this thread is because I was starting to do some math on why Frolik hasn't been traded yet, and came to the conclusion that it’s either because none of the offers would save us enough money to make it worthwhile... or maybe it was because Tree has another plan to both free up cap space, and also get something back that can help.

Frolik is off the books at the end of the season. If you can move a different contract that both gets us space to sign Tkachuck, plus brings in a prospect or a high pick, and you still have Frolik’s dollars available for next season, suddenly we’re in much better shape than just a simple cap dump of Frolik for $2-3M (realistically) in space would leave us.

[Enoch Root]

No one is going to seek out Frolik and the chance to pay him $4.3M, no.

However, his actual salary this season is $3M. If the Flames retained say $1M, there are teams for whom $2M of actual salary, with a $3.3M cap hit, isn't a bad way to help get to the cap floor.

For an actual cost of $2M, or something in that neighbourhood, it shouldn't take a great deal of enticement to move him - maybe a 3rd or 4th round pick.

Frolik with $1M retained, plus a 3rd for a 5th or 6th round pick is a reasonable trade - there are doable options there. There is no need to start dismantling the team and trading Backlund.

[Enoch Root]

Another option is to trade Frolik for someone that is basically a $2-3M cap dump (i.e. a lesser player).

Team A trades a guy that costs $2.5M and has a $2.5M cap hit for Frolik who costs them $3M. It doesn't hurt their budget, and they get a better player. The Flames save a couple million in cap hit.

There are options.

Edit: like the Riley Nash suggestion (lol)

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

No one is going to seek out Frolik and the chance to pay him $4.3M, no.

However, his actual salary this season is $3M. If the Flames retained say $1M, there are teams for whom $2M of actual salary, with a $3.3M cap hit, isn't a bad way to help get to the cap floor.

For an actual cost of $2M, or something in that neighbourhood, it shouldn't take a great deal of enticement to move him - maybe a 3rd or 4th round pick.

Frolik with $1M retained, plus a 3rd for a 5th or 6th round pick is a reasonable trade - there are doable options there. There is no need to start dismantling the team and trading Backlund.

That's a terrible deal for Calgary - not only are we retaining salary, we are also adding a mid round pick to move a very productive middle six forward?

Here is a better idea. Waive Czarnik and put Valimaki on the LTIR. This gives Treliving 8.7-8.9M to sign both Tkachuk and Mangiapane and run a 22 man roster.

Frolik makes this team better - and is one of the better options to move up the lineup should/when injuries occur. A Frolik trade at this point seems like far to much of a headache due to his salary and NTC. He is also not a player you should be giving up assets to move. Finding an alternative way to make the cap room work seems far more ideal at this point.