The Great Flames Goalie Debate Thread

[Matata]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Either goalie could get hot at the right time and go on a long playoff run.

I don't think you can hope for that with Smith, at best, every series with him in net is going to be a coin flip whether he single handedly buries the team or not.


Rittich has consistently wilted under pressure so far, but is still young and learning and I can at least have some hope he gets hot at the right time.

[Harry Lime]

I would run with the obvious plan.

1) Run a 1a 1b scenario this season, with Rittich as the 1a.
2) Rittich gets starting duties next year with Gilles as the backup.
3)Two years out, our best prospect (Parsons) pushes Rittich, and is hopefully the starter for ten years.

Sell high on Rittich and Gilles.
Profit.

[Shin Pad]

Too bad we didn't have Kipper in his prime now.

[David Struch]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Either goalie could get hot at the right time and go on a long playoff run.

I'd love to see Mike Smith pull a 1996 John Vanbiesbrouck or how about David Rittich go 1986 Mike Vernon.

[Kipper_3434]

I think Smith is done. He could probably play a 1b role for the rest of the season but would be incredibly nervous if he played a single playoff game. Rittich looks great but is inexperienced in the playoffs. What i think we need is an insurance policy for if Rittich falters. Gillies has been shaky and i don't see another gear out of him, and parsons is far from ready.

Ideally i would like an experienced goalie like Crawford or Fleury brought in. Unfortunately i don't see us having the cap space we will need for next season if we get a 6m goalie....that leaves low value options...and frankly i don't see a good fit anywhere

[transplant99]

Flames are 8th in the NHL in GAA.

Would never have guessed that, and its an indication IMO, of the observation that with the equipment changes that almost all G's are looking worse than in years past.

I'm not sure anything needs to be done this season.

Obviously there will be changes over the summer but at this point, unless something falls into their laps, you wait until the draft to make that decision.

[Beninho]

Play Rittich, end of debate

[Matty81]

I agree that they probably sit tight.

But being 8th in the league in GAA is not great when you are 3rd overall in shots against.

Confirms for me what everyone's eyesight test confirms, that weak goals are going in.

I just don't see any great options out there for a trade that are worth selling the farm. I think if they can grab a buried prospect like Jarry for a 2nd or 3rd it's probably a good move to have an alternative to Gillies in case he stays in bad form but I'd wait to see how Parsons plays first.

If Parsons falters badly at the AHL level again, make the move to grab some depth, move him down the the ECHL for the year and release or loan out Mason McDonald imo.

[Flamenspiel]

Yea, for now I think Rittich is certainly adequate. He had that weak episode last year but I don't think he has had a really bad game this year. The Columbus game was a weird one where all the goalies had a bad game but i cannot think of any other bad performances or any where he "wilted under pressure"...The most pressure he had was the two games against Edmonton and he was excellent in those two games.

[Imported_Aussie]

I am not sure what is up with Smith, but he is even more wildly inconsistent than he has been in the past. It could be father time catching up with him, it could be fighting an injury or more confidence/approach. Maybe get him talking to a sports psychologist?
The one time he looks like a better option than Rittich is against teams that dump and chase, as he has the puck-handling skills to prevent the cycle from starting.

Rittich being more steady seems to embolden the skaters, leading to better chances generated off the rush, defence more likely to join the rush. I can't remember which poster mentioned it, but for a guy with 3 L and 1 OTL, 2 of those losses were 1-0 and 2-0 respectively, where you cannot hang it on the goaltending.

It is still a small sample size, and he has been on a short leash, so to me, the next move is to give him some more rope and go to a 1A/1B split. Smith plays vs the favourable matchup/dump and chase heavy team, keeping him fresh enough if Rittich stumbles.
Over this time, if Rittich shows he has potential to at least be a 1A/1B split goalie, then the Flames roll with him and get a veteran on a short term deal in the offseason.

If Rittich looks like a backup who is over his head, then the next starter candidate in their 20s that is available, the Flames need to pounce. Injuries to Gillies and Parsons have slowed their development, and there is no guarantee that either pans out. The Flames also have a short window with Gaudreau and Giordano under contract where it makes sense to take a shot.
Goaltending hasn't sunk this team yet, so they have time to give Rittich a run, but if they waste this chance, they may have to commit on limited knowledge or be forced into making a move

[Matata]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

Yea, for now I think Rittich is certainly adequate. He had that weak episode last year but I don't think he has had a really bad game this year. The Columbus game was a weird one where all the goalies had a bad game but i cannot think of any other bad performances or any where he "wilted under pressure"...The most pressure he had was the two games against Edmonton and he was excellent in those two games.

Last year he was great until he was pushed into the #1 spot, then he was average to below average the rest of the year.

This year he had two bad games right after he seemed to be our #1 going forward, Smith then comes back and plays some good hockey taking the #1 spot again, and then Rittich starts playing well again.

Rittich has never looked good when he's the #1 spot. Again, he's young and has the potential to get over the hump, but he hasn't yet and it's still a big question mark for him.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Play Rittich, end of debate

Maybe some people just want to be a little more thoughtful? Look at his games played in the past and ease him in instead of throwing him in the deep end?

I think he can probably handle a starters role. It was going that way until he lost a couple and Smith had his streak.

For all we know this turns into a 2014-15 Hiller/Ramo situation where Peters guesses right like Hartley did.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Duffalufagus

Exception, not the rule.

This team is a SC contender from the blueline out. But Smith isn’t winning three playoff rounds. Our chances this year are tied to Rittich’s development.

definitely the exception, but some food for thought:

The year Chicago won their first cup in 09/10, 34 year old Cristobal Huet put up an .895 sv% over 48 games while Niemi sported a .912 sv% playing 39 games. That is roughly the split Smith and Rittich have played thus far.

Even with his poor numbers, Huet managed 4 shutouts. Mike Smith is also essentially on this pace despite his .888 save percentage.

The first half of the season, Huet was having a much better season than Smith has thus far, but he began to falter in the second half of the year while Niemi stayed his consistent self.

Huet eventually lost the starters net to Niemi that spring, and was able to raise the cup after sporting a .910 and 2.63 stat line in 22 games in the playoffs.

How do you win a cup allowing 2.63 goals against per game with a .910 save percentage?

You score 3.55 goals per game, the highest goals per game of any cup winning team between 2010 and last year when the capitals won with 3.58 goals per game.

Chicago finished 3rd that year in the regular season with 3.20 goals per game.

The Flames right now are sitting at 3.53, 6th in the league.

Chicago finished 4th best in goals against that season with 2.48. Right now, the flames are 7th best with 2.78

It's an outlier, but it's definitely possible if you can score enough. If the flames had another scorer, they could be that team.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Imported_Aussie

I am not sure what is up with Smith, but he is even more wildly inconsistent than he has been in the past. It could be father time catching up with him, it could be fighting an injury or more confidence/approach. Maybe get him talking to a sports psychologist?
The one time he looks like a better option than Rittich is against teams that dump and chase, as he has the puck-handling skills to prevent the cycle from starting.

Rittich being more steady seems to embolden the skaters, leading to better chances generated off the rush, defence more likely to join the rush. I can't remember which poster mentioned it, but for a guy with 3 L and 1 OTL, 2 of those losses were 1-0 and 2-0 respectively, where you cannot hang it on the goaltending.

It is still a small sample size, and he has been on a short leash, so to me, the next move is to give him some more rope and go to a 1A/1B split. Smith plays vs the favourable matchup/dump and chase heavy team, keeping him fresh enough if Rittich stumbles.
Over this time, if Rittich shows he has potential to at least be a 1A/1B split goalie, then the Flames roll with him and get a veteran on a short term deal in the offseason.

If Rittich looks like a backup who is over his head, then the next starter candidate in their 20s that is available, the Flames need to pounce. Injuries to Gillies and Parsons have slowed their development, and there is no guarantee that either pans out. The Flames also have a short window with Gaudreau and Giordano under contract where it makes sense to take a shot.
Goaltending hasn't sunk this team yet, so they have time to give Rittich a run, but if they waste this chance, they may have to commit on limited knowledge or be forced into making a move

The guy has used the same sized equipment for the majority of his adult life.

That equipment changed.

He is still getting used to it and perhaps wont be able to in a time frame that helps him and the team this year or at any point.

I think it could just be that simple.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Matty81

I agree that they probably sit tight.

But being 8th in the league in GAA is not great when you are 3rd overall in shots against...

I don't see why this matters. Who cares how the team is succeeding defensively so long as they are doing it and it continues? The Flames's ability to limit shots and scoring chances in their zone is precisely why they seemingly can afford the luxury of playing with merely adequate goalies.

[David Struch]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

Unfortunately i don't see us having the cap space we will need for next season if we get a 6m goalie....

Just as an example, let's say the deal was Bennett + 1st & 2nd to the Blackhawks.

2019-20:

Gaudreau 6,75 Monahan 6,375 Lindholm 4,85
Tkachuk 8,0 Backlund 5,35 Neal 5,75
Dubé ,778 Ryan 3,125 Frolík 4,3
Mangiapane ,705 Jankowski 1,675 Czarnik 1,25

Giordano 6,75 Brodie 4,65
Hanifin 4,95 Hamonic 3,857
Välimäki ,894 Andersson ,755
Stone 3,5

Crawford 6,0
Gillies ,750

Salary Cap $83,000,000
Cap Hit $82,510,875
Buyouts $1,500,000
Bonuses $665,000
Cap Space $489,125

[killer_carlson]

We are getting good enough goaltending right now. That buys us time to evaluate options including whether someone on the roster or in the system can take the reigns.

As far as outside options go, the guy I have my eye on is Quick out of LA. Reasonable cap hit at $5.8 and signed long term.

He has battled injuries for sure. However he's also carried teams to 2 cup rings and can lock it down in the playoffs.

If LA goes full rebuild, that's the guy I would be looking at

[LWcrowfoot]

Flames are 8th for GA/GP but they should be better and that's due to goaltending. Calgary currently sits 0.03 away from having the least shots against in the entire NHL. It was a rocky start but they've been a top defensive team for some time now.

Yes there are breakdowns and bad plays (Jankowski and Monahan on two different "efforts" last night) but goaltending has to be better and that's going to be our downfall. The last goal on Smith against the Flyers was one of the worst reads I've seen. Just confusing goaltending.

Sixth in goals per game, 8th in goals against. Special teams could improve but both are middling at the moment. Mike Smith has to be better or we need to make a move. Can't be happy with were we sit defensively when it could be better.

[flames_fan_down_under]

When I watched Kipper calmly absorb shots into his gear I always thought how easy he made it look; Mike Smith on the other hand makes goaltending look really really hard. Nothing looks natural, he goes down on his pads too early, his lateral quickness is non-existent, his belly flops are tough to watch, and why is he is always so deep in in his crease? That fourth goal he let in last night, Weise shoots the puck from the blue line and the two other oncoming forwards are at the top of the face off circle, why the hell is Smith so deep in his crease? There is no sharpness or calmness to his game, it's all really hard to watch. On top of that he routinely lets in just horrifying goals to watch. I have never seen an NHL goalie let in so many bad goals so often. His save percentage is at .888, which with goalies playing a minimum of 15 games, puts him dead last amongst that group, his GAA of 2.99 has him 22nd out of 30 goalies. But hey he battles, makes unorthodox scorpion saves and has had an Ok stretch of games.

And on the other hand you have a goalie that is 4th in GAA (again minimum 15 games started), 8th in Sv%, was the main reason we beat the stupid no good Oilers and has lost a grand total of 3 games in regulation time.

Hmm, seems like a real puzzler here.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I don't see why this matters. Who cares how the team is succeeding defensively so long as they are doing it and it continues? The Flames's ability to limit shots and scoring chances in their zone is precisely why they seemingly can afford the luxury of playing with merely adequate goalies.

They may have that luxury now but not if you want to get deep into the playoffs. In any event, there may be a bit too much handwringing because it's still early in the season. Rittich's play up to now is good enough. Smith's isn't. The objective should be to get Rittich ready for the playoffs. I just worry based on the way things have been handled up to now and the stubbornness of someone like Burke who I fear speaks for the thinking of Peters and Treliving as well, that they keep giving the reins back to Smith until he fails, even in the playoffs. I can be patient but there should be a plan in place to prepare Rittich to carry the load. Because that's the only realistic shot of us making a deep playoff run this season.