The Athletic: Dube article

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Said it in other threads. Dube's going to take Sam Bennett's job. I thought it would take till the deadline, but it might happen sooner than later.


Gaudreau Monahan Lindholm
Tkachuk Backlund Neal
Dube Ryan Czarnik
Mangipane Jankowski Frolik
Hathaway

Flames should look to get some picks to replenish what they've spent over the past two years.

Bennett is better than Mangiapane and is better in the long run than Frolik.

I know he has been struggling to recapture his rookie season success but this cr@p needs to end.

Give one of our top 3 youngest forwards on the team a chance to prove it was GGs coaching that stunted his development before we trade him over a guy like Frolik.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Exactly

The range in third line forwards by points last year was 22-33, that's it. His off years are 26, his good year was 36 and he may still have upside.

That same range in salary is 1M to 4.4M.

Bennett is an average third line player making less than average for a third line player.

Little doubt he's been a disappointment compared to his draft position, but the need to over dramatize what he actually is is befuddling.

I think this is quite accurate. But equally befuddling to me are the people who lose their minds at the mere suggestion Bennett could be traded. The Flames have had an awfully good look at Bennett and if they see him as a career third liner they may well move him to a team who sees more there. Kind of like the Senators and Lazar, although he was a lesser player to begin with.

I’m in no way suggesting the Flames need to trade Bennett but 3rd liners switch teams constantly. Right now Bennett’s contract is cheap so there’s no reason to do anything unless someone out there is banging your door down.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

You won't see both Hathaway and Dube on the team, unless someone is moved to make space. Realistically, there is only one forward position available, with Hathaway, Dube, Mangiapane, Lazar, and Foo fighting for it. I don't see any of them displacing Bennett, who has shown way more at every level than any of them, plays with some sandpaper, and is looking good on the PK so far. I do agree, however, that Peluso might make it as an extra forward, being brought in to keep an eye on Lucic for 4 games this season and eating popcorn for the rest. I don't think I would bring him into the lineup in the case of an injury, unless it was impossible to get anyone else up in time.

There's one starting forward position. There are probably three positions available if you count extra forwards. I think Hathaway is far more suited for the latter, and maybe Lazar as well. So between Mangiapane, Dube and Foo, I think Dube has the inside track as far as play is concerned. Mangiapane has an edge in age and pro experience. Foo shoots right and outproduced Mangiapane in their respective short NHL stints.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

There's one starting forward position. There are probably three positions available if you count extra forwards. I think Hathaway is far more suited for the latter, and maybe Lazar as well. So between Mangiapane, Dube and Foo, I think Dube has the inside track as far as play is concerned. Mangiapane has an edge in age and pro experience. Foo shoots right and outproduced Mangiapane in their respective short NHL stints.

Yes, Hathaway and Lazar are the most likely candidates for one of the extra forward positions, since at this point in their careers, neither of them has much to gain from spending more time in the minors. Given that Peters seems to like Hathaway, it will probably be him, and Lazar will likely be waived. Due to his other attributes, Peluso may have the inside track on the other extra forward position.

In the post you quoted, I was referring only to the starters.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

Yes, Hathaway and Lazar are the most likely candidates for one of the extra forward positions, since at this point in their careers, neither of them has much to gain from spending more time in the minors. Given that Peters seems to like Hathaway, it will probably be him, and Lazar will likely be waived. Due to his other attributes, Peluso may have the inside track on the other extra forward position.

In the post you quoted, I was referring only to the starters.

I doubt Peluso is an extra forward. They don't seem to keep guys around just to fight a particular player from one other team. I suspect Lazar might be the guy to keep because he can play all positions.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I doubt Peluso is an extra forward. They don't seem to keep guys around just to fight a particular player from one other team. I suspect Lazar might be the guy to keep because he can play all positions.

I think this would be the better choice, but given the Flames' recent track record of keeping borderline PTO players on the roster for the first few weeks of the season for their toughness until it is abundantly clear that they can't keep up, it wouldn't surprise me.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I think this is quite accurate. But equally befuddling to me are the people who lose their minds at the mere suggestion Bennett could be traded. The Flames have had an awfully good look at Bennett and if they see him as a career third liner they may well move him to a team who sees more there. Kind of like the Senators and Lazar, although he was a lesser player to begin with.

I’m in no way suggesting the Flames need to trade Bennett but 3rd liners switch teams constantly. Right now Bennett’s contract is cheap so there’s no reason to do anything unless someone out there is banging your door down.

I think there are two different animals.

The trade Bennett camp is fine, as long as it's not a fire sale. He has value to the team because he's productive for a third liner and doesn't have a salary that exceeds that production ... in fact it's discounted. If a team pays up for that potential and they feel he doesn't have it ... trade him.

The other animal and the one that gets most of the ire is the "he's a bust" or "he's an offensive blackhole" camp, neither of which are grounded in reality at all and honestly show more butt hurt about a player not becoming what he was drafted for to see what he his now.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

I think this would be the better choice, but given the Flames' recent track record of keeping borderline PTO players on the roster for the first few weeks of the season for their toughness until it is abundantly clear that they can't keep up, it wouldn't surprise me.

This raises an interesting question to me.

Burke is gone. And to be honest past that first draft I didn't see him as much of an influence over Treliving anyway. So now you have Treliving and Maloney at the top of the pyramid, neither of which strike me as a "bring back 70s hockey" types.

Yet Glass last year. The team made a big deal about his standing up to Lucic etc late. They have Prout and Peluso hanging around. Do the players in interviews say they need this? Do they talk about playing their game when they know Calgary has an answer to the Lucic's of the world?

To me that has to be the case or it wouldn't make any sense at all.

At least it's also an organization that has gone skill over size big time in drafting of late ... and that's certainly the story of this camp with Czarnik, Dube and Mangiapane all making noise.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think there are two different animals.

The trade Bennett camp is fine, as long as it's not a fire sale. He has value to the team because he's productive for a third liner and doesn't have a salary that exceeds that production ... in fact it's discounted. If a team pays up for that potential and they feel he doesn't have it ... trade him.

The other animal and the one that gets most of the ire is the "he's a bust" or "he's an offensive blackhole" camp, neither of which are grounded in reality at all and honestly show more butt hurt about a player not becoming what he was drafted for to see what he his now.

Would you not agree though that Bennett is a bust in relation to his draft position?

I don't think a lot of teams go into a draft with a top 5 pick and come away thinking "we got ourselves a good 3rd liner" and are satisfied with that.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Would you not agree though that Bennett is a bust in relation to his draft position?

I don't think a lot of teams go into a draft with a top 5 pick and come away thinking "we got ourselves a good 3rd liner" and are satisfied with that.

I wouldn't.

But then I reserve the word bust for the Jason Bogsignore's of the world.

He's clearly not become the player that he was drafted to become. I thought he would be Calgary's go to offensive player within three seasons. He clearly never will be.

But a guy that pops 18 as a NHL rookie isn't a bust in my mind.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Bingo

This raises an interesting question to me.

Burke is gone. And to be honest past that first draft I didn't see him as much of an influence over Treliving anyway. So now you have Treliving and Maloney at the top of the pyramid, neither of which strike me as a "bring back 70s hockey" types.

Yet Glass last year. The team made a big deal about his standing up to Lucic etc late. They have Prout and Peluso hanging around. Do the players in interviews say they need this? Do they talk about playing their game when they know Calgary has an answer to the Lucic's of the world?

To me that has to be the case or it wouldn't make any sense at all.

At least it's also an organization that has gone skill over size big time in drafting of late ... and that's certainly the story of this camp with Czarnik, Dube and Mangiapane all making noise.

IIRC they had the rough and tough types both together and after BT left Arizona.

I think of Carcillo and Bissonette etc.....of course that thinking may have changed the last 3 years or so.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I wouldn't.

But then I reserve the word bust for the Jason Bogsignore's of the world.

He's clearly not become the player that he was drafted to become. I thought he would be Calgary's go to offensive player within three seasons. He clearly never will be.

But a guy that pops 18 as a NHL rookie isn't a bust in my mind.

Fair enough, but what he has done since then is the problem IMO...and the stupid penalties. His mental game is what has held him back as much as anything. We know he has the tools and more often than not has a good motor going, so it comes down to understanding and thinking the game..thats where he has "busted" thus far I believe.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Would you not agree though that Bennett is a bust in relation to his draft position?

I would not agree. Blake Wheeler didn't even play his rookie season until he was 22. Guys like Brayden Schenn, Nazem Kadri, Daymond Langkow, Nino Niederreiter... there are players drafted in a similar place who needed time to get the opportunity to put it all together as impactful top six forwards. Even Scheifele took a lot of time, and his pre-breakout years were augmented by guys like Frolik and Kane while his post-breakout years have been augmented by the likes of elite talents like Wheeler, Laine, Ehlers.

It's not a skill, IQ, or physical talent issue with Bennett. He just hasn't put it all together in one complete package, which isn't shocking given the context of his draft+1 thru +4. Not only does he play a style which historically has taken longer to develop, he has played with linemates who've consistently shown to be, at best fringe NHLers. He's shown the commitment, leadership, grit. The evidence exists to suggest last year might have been a huge growth in his effectiveness if his shooting percentagesand on-ice shooting percentages hadn't plummetted to well below his first two seasons - it's not as if last year and the year prior were identical in terms of process, even if the results appeared to track. There's evidence that he can be more disciplined, based on the fact that prior to Gulutzan he was more disciplined.

There's a lot of reason to not declare anything about Sam Bennett. Sorry for my patience with a kid entering his 22 year old season. Jankowski was entering his first year pro at the same age and still had detractors wondering if he was even worth an NHL entry level contract and that's what Bennett haters sound like.

Dube is having a great preseason... but hasn't remotely even passed Bennett at the same age. Heck go check out Bennett's 20 year old season through to December 29th 2016, the date when Gulutzan decided to mess with Bennett's development by taking him off the PP just to reward Frolik. People would be beyond ecstatic if Dube were that good in the NHL by New Years - Bennett was playing center and had 18 points in his first 38 games that year. Do you anticipate Dube matching that as a 20 year old?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Fair enough, but what he has done since then is the problem IMO...and the stupid penalties. His mental game is what has held him back as much as anything. We know he has the tools and more often than not has a good motor going, so it comes down to understanding and thinking the game..thats where he has "busted" thus far I believe.

No penalties so far in the preseason, and I've liked three of his four games. Last night his line turned that game around in my mind, Frolik showing he may be a great fit with Jankowski and Bennett.

He may never get back to that rookie season, and I understand that.

But last year I felt a greater percentage of his penalties were aggressive in nature and not lazy, which was a step in the right direction.

But he's an above average NHL player with below average finishing rates in my mind. That may never change for sure, but because of that I'm not closing the book on him or selling low in a trade.

[CroFlames]

These were Rhett Warrener's lines this morning at about 8:15AM:


Johnny-Monahan-Neal
Tkachuk-Backlund-Bennett
Mangiapane-Lindholm-Dube
Czarnik-Ryan-Frolik


He says Jankowski hasn't done anything to stay on the team.

[Royle9]

Hey how about that Dillon Dube kid !

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Would you not agree though that Bennett is a bust in relation to his draft position?

I don't think a lot of teams go into a draft with a top 5 pick and come away thinking "we got ourselves a good 3rd liner" and are satisfied with that.

Yeah, I think so long s Bennett continues to be a useful NHL player then he cannot be classified s a "bust." I agree with Bingo on this.

But I believe more of the pushback is coming against those who continue to project a narrative about Bennett as a total washout who holds no value to the team and is easily replaced by any nameless, faceless AHL scrub. Its this perspective that is so far removed from reality that I take issue with. While Bennett may not be the offensive star we hoped, and while I am annoyed by the number of offensive zone penalties he has a tendency to take he is still an effective player who makes things happen on the ice. That is not by any stretch "useless" to a team, and so long as he continues to provide effective minutes—even with his warts—he will always find a job in the NHL. No, I would say that is not a bust. It's disappointing, but at some point the team, the fans need to get over the disappointment and accept the situation. It may lead to trading Bennett eventually, but not necessarily.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Would you not agree though that Bennett is a bust in relation to his draft position?

I don't think a lot of teams go into a draft with a top 5 pick and come away thinking "we got ourselves a good 3rd liner" and are satisfied with that.

To me a bust is a player with high pedigree who turns out not to be an NHL player. It may take a few years of bouncing around but they are playing in Europe within 5 years. If someone can carve out a career in the NHL they may be a disappointment but not a true bust. The question then is whether Bennett as he currently stands is an NHL player. If yes, then he's not a bust. If the answer is he has potential to be but remains to be seen then we can hold off the bust label but it is still a possibility. My opinion is the former but YMMV.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

These were Rhett Warrener's lines this morning at about 8:15AM:


Johnny-Monahan-Neal
Tkachuk-Backlund-Bennett
Mangiapane-Lindholm-Dube
Czarnik-Ryan-Frolik


He says Jankowski hasn't done anything to stay on the team.

With all this handwringing about Bennett's unfulfilled potential and the need to give him a shot at the top six, we need to remember that Elias Lindholm was drafted 5th overall. He's not some extra part on this roster, but a player with the pedigree and tools to be a top forward, and one who has shown more so far in the league than Bennett has.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Yeah, I think so long s Bennett continues to be a useful NHL player then he cannot be classified s a "bust." I agree with Bingo on this.

But I believe more of the pushback is coming against those who continue to project a narrative about Bennett as a total washout who holds no value to the team and is easily replaced by any nameless, faceless AHL scrub. Its this perspective that is so far removed from reality that I take issue with. While Bennett may not be the offensive star we hoped, and while I am annoyed by the number of offensive zone penalties he has a tendency to take he is still an effective player who makes things happen on the ice. That is not by any stretch "useless" to a team, and so long as he continues to provide effective minutes—even with his warts—he will always find a job in the NHL. No, I would say that is not a bust. It's disappointing, but at some point the team, the fans need to get over the disappointment and accept the situation. It may lead to trading Bennett eventually, but not necessarily.

I feel like there are very, very few people saying this, and the outrage has now become entirely disproportionate. For every post calling Bennett a washout there seem to be dozens of complaints about the Bennett haters.

Maybe my perception is just skewed.