The Athletic: Top 50 drafted NHL prospects - Page 4 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

ricardodw · 07-30-2018, 02:25 PM

In the top-50 here is the breakdown by teams:

Van - 4
Car - 3
Col - 3
NYI - 3
VGK - 3
Buf - 2
Chi - 2
Edm -2
Fla - 2
LA - 2
Ott - 2
Phi - 2
StL - 2
Wpg - 2
Ana - 1
Ari - 1
Bos - 1
Cbj - 1
Cgy - 1
Dal - 1
Det - 1
Min - 1
Mtl - 1
Nsh - 1
NYR - 1
Pit - 1
SJ - 1
TB - 1
Tor - 1
Was - 1
NJ - 0

Strange Brew · 07-30-2018, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Textcritic

My guess is that Valimaki was off the table altogether, but that negotiations centred on Fox and the two AHL defensemen as the sticking point. At this point the debate is whether to believe that one of Kylington or Andersson was not enough for Carolina to strike a deal, or whether it was too much for the Flames to finalize.

Sorry if I missed it but is there a legitimate rumor/source that the negotiations involved Andersson and Kylington. Or just reasonable speculation?

It’s believable for sure. And such an intersting trade to break down. I like the trade for the Flames in the end but it’s the kind of trade with so many young players involved you could look back in 5 years and conclude one side was totally fleeced.

Textcritic · 07-30-2018, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Sorry if I missed it but is there a legitimate rumor/source that the negotiations involved Andersson and Kylington. Or just reasonable speculation?...

No, this is just my hunch, but given the depth the Flames have on the blue line I think it is a good bet that the prospect in this deal was always going to be a defenseman.

*EDIT*
As to your second point, I agree. It is pretty significant that 26-year-old Micheal Ferland is the oldest one in this five-player deal.

CorsiHockeyLeague · 07-30-2018, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOnlyBilko

Can someone copy and paste this guy's top 50? I guess you need an account or sumthing to read article

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

No please don’t. It’s copyright material behind a pay wall.

Without posting the list, there are some interesting ones. Dahlin and Petterson are 1-2. Wahlstrom is 12, and considering he was picked 11 this year and the list includes guys from last year, that's pretty high praise. Cale Makar is surprisingly low at 19. As noted, Valimaki is 35, but Liljegren is 29 despite being picked after Valimaki.

Some big jumpers are Tolvanen (drafted 30 ovr, #6 on the list), Kaprizov (drafted 155th in 2015, #11 on the list), Carter Hart (drafted 48, #27 on the list) and Vitali Abramov (drafted 65th in 2016, list #31).

Kailer Yamamoto made the list in the last spot.

ricardodw · 07-30-2018, 02:41 PM

In 2017 Valmaki was the 16th pick over all and is the 15th highest rank 2017 drafted prospect from the list. Two have graduated (Hischier and Patrick) so Valimaki has end up 1 spot down on this prospect list if taken as a re-draft.

Passed by Tolvanen, Robert Thomas, Borgstrom, Chytil, Vesalainen and Liljegren and passing 5 guys picked before him.

the2bears · 07-30-2018, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricardodw

In 2017 Valmaki was the 16th pick over all and is the 15th highest rank 2017 drafted prospect from the list. Two have graduated (Hischier and Patrick) so Valimaki has end up 1 spot down on this prospect list if taken as a re-draft.

Passed by Tolvanen, Robert Thomas, Borgstrom, Chytil, Vesalainen and Liljegren and passing 5 guys picked before him.

Won't the list include players from other draft years, not just Valimaki's? That's not the same as him moving down a spot in a re-draft. Not even close.

Strange Brew · 07-30-2018, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the2bears

Won't the list include players from other draft years, not just Valimaki's? That's not the same as him moving down a spot in a re-draft. Not even close.

He is saying Valimaki is the 15th rated prospect from that draft class. With 2 guys having graduated from prospect to NHLer.

the2bears · 07-30-2018, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

What’s your endgame here?

the2bears · 07-30-2018, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

He is saying Valimaki is the 15th rated prospect from that draft class. With 2 guys having graduated from prospect to NHLer.

Ah, in that case I misunderstood the list (or rather don't have access to it) and thought it was a list of prospects beyond just that draft year.

Not sure I would agree with Valimaki actually having dropped in that case.

Strange Brew · 07-30-2018, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the2bears

Ah, in that case I misunderstood the list (or rather don't have access to it) and thought it was a list of prospects beyond just that draft year.

Not sure I would agree with Valimaki actually having dropped in that case.

It is a list beyond that draft year, but in this case he is looking only at the ranking of players drafted that year. So technically yeah the article is saying on re-draft Valimaki goes 17th.

It has only been a year so I wouldn’t expect to see a big swing. It’s the next few years that will matter.

And I don’t have the article either, just going by Ricardo’s arithmetic. I wonder if Ricardo would have made a comparable post if Valimaki moved up a few spots?

ricardodw · 07-30-2018, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

It is a list beyond that draft year, but in this case he is looking only at the ranking of players drafted that year. So technically yeah the article is saying on re-draft Valimaki goes 17th.

It has only been a year so I wouldn’t expect to see a big swing. It’s the next few years that will matter.

And I don’t have the article either, just going by Ricardo’s arithmetic. I wonder if Ricardo would have made a comparable post if Valimaki moved up a few spots?

When I started I thought that he would have moved up. In my mind he has exceeded expectations.

CorsiHockeyLeague · 07-30-2018, 04:33 PM

I think he's just met them. Tolvanen has clearly exceeded his draft ranking, and Borgstrom has done so to a lesser degree. Liljegren fell in the draft and then subsequently has shown that he may have fallen too far. Thomas, Chytl and Vesalainen are debatable as to whether they're better prospects than Valimaki right now, in my opinion. But all of this depends not only on how you like the prospect but also what your criteria are, particularly in terms of upside vs. certainty.

Bingo · 07-30-2018, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Why don't you rage back at Bingo?

I don't say a lot of rage creating things?

ricardodw · 07-30-2018, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bingo

I don't say a lot of rage creating things?

True that ... and I like to think that neither do I

Bingo · 08-01-2018, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricardodw

True that ... and I like to think that neither do I

You poke at topics or angles that you know will create a stir and then act pretty dumbfounded when they do.

Not sure I've ever done that myself

dustygoon · 08-01-2018, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Husky

Fox has a great offensive skillset but his skating is average at best.

Brian Rafalski wasn't a water bug, but he did pretty well. I'm pretty sure Fox's skating is just fine.

Here is what ISS said at the time...."A smooth skating, offensive defenceman who shows strong mobility and excellent vision".

Or Future Considerations..."using impressive top-end speed"

Or Redline...."Smallish defender is highly mobile"

As for his offense...

"Not since Brian Leetch scored 47 points in 37 games back in 1986-87 has an 18-year-old defender had this sort of offensive impact in college."

And his 59 points for the US National U18 team is a record by a blue liner.

It absolutely 100% sucks that we couldn't keep this guy.

SuperMatt18 · 08-01-2018, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricardodw

In 2017 Valmaki was the 16th pick over all and is the 15th highest rank 2017 drafted prospect from the list. Two have graduated (Hischier and Patrick) so Valimaki has end up 1 spot down on this prospect list if taken as a re-draft.

Passed by Tolvanen, Robert Thomas, Borgstrom, Chytil, Vesalainen and Liljegren and passing 5 guys picked before him.

Borgstrom was a 2016 pick.

So that means at worst Valimaki held flat to his spot at 16.

Also he's in the same "tier" as Thomas, Chytil, Vesalainen, and Liljegren. IMO the only guy that clearly has passed him is Tolvanen, and with the other 4 it's arguable and I think a case could be made for any of those players being better than the other. Think that Chytil and Liljegren are getting a boost for playing AHL already from the article's writer but that's not 100% fair since I think Valimaki would have thrived in the AHL last year but just wasn't eligible.

ricardodw · 08-01-2018, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Borgstrom was a 2016 pick.

So that means at worst Valimaki held flat to his spot at 16.

Also he's in the same "tier" as Thomas, Chytil, Vesalainen, and Liljegren. IMO the only guy that clearly has passed him is Tolvanen, and with the other 4 it's arguable and I think a case could be made for any of those players being better than the other. Think that Chytil and Liljegren are getting a boost for playing AHL already from the article's writer but that's not 100% fair since I think Valimaki would have thrived in the AHL last year but just wasn't eligible.

I stand corrected. I had Valimaki as the same draft position on my first pass and may have added this error in "checking"

Thomas was ranked #17 , Valimaki 35 18 spots lower so a "tier" might go the 18 spots below Valimaki and include all picks from 18-53.

The 2017 draft picks ranked in this article after Valimaki are:

Henri Jokiharju
Aleksi Heponiemi
Morgan Frost
Erik Brannstrom
Conor Timmons
Cal Foote
Kailer Yamamoto

I am pretty sure that there would be people that feel that Cal Foote is a match for Valimaki and there would not be universal outrage had Foote been ranked higher than Valimaki.

It is one persons opinion... but it does not support any huge upgrade on Valimaki having a radical increase over his 2017 draft cohorts.

Valimaki had a great D+1 season as did a majority of the 2017 draft class.

Textcritic · 08-01-2018, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricardodw

...It is one persons opinion... but it does not support any huge upgrade on Valimaki having a radical increase over his 2017 draft cohorts.

Valimaki had a great D+1 season as did a majority of the 2017 draft class.

And that is perfectly fine, but this fact does sort of nullify the value of doing a 2017 fantasy re-draft, no?

ricardodw · 08-01-2018, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Textcritic

And that is perfectly fine, but this fact does sort of nullify the value of doing a 2017 fantasy re-draft, no?

If the Flames had drafted one of the obvious climbers in 2017 in the re-draft: Toloven up 25 spots from 30, Thomas up 11 spots from 20, Chytil up 10 spots from 21, Vesalainen up 12 spots from 24 you might have found more value or at least enjoyment in the concept of a 2017 re-draft. Soory for wasting your valuable time.

Philosophically speaking there is as little value as ranking the Flames best prospects and whether they will eventual beat the odds and become bonafide NHL players as there would be discussing this articles opinion, no? At lot of people enjoy the mental exercise.