[Rumour] Flames interested in Tobias Rieder

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The team has enough talent to have an effective PP. I don't see that issue being about personnel.

It was 100% personnel last season because the second we lost Kris Versteeg, the PP went to the dumper. From 11th place at 22.1% (top 10 in 16-17) all the way down to 30th place at 13.5%.

We tried just about everybody on the team and it was still a failure. To me, it wasn't the systems, the systems proved to be successful in the past, IMO, it was the personnel.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

It was 100% personnel last season because the second we lost Kris Versteeg, the PP went to the dumper. From 11th place at 22.1% (top 10 in 16-17) all the way down to 30th place at 13.5%.

We tried just about everybody on the team and it was still a failure. To me, it wasn't the systems, the systems proved to be successful in the past, IMO, it was the personnel.

100% personnel? Interesting theory.
I saw a lot of issues with the overall set up including where shooters were placed and having Johnny playing off the wall.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

It was 100% personnel last season because the second we lost Kris Versteeg, the PP went to the dumper. From 11th place at 22.1% (top 10 in 16-17) all the way down to 30th place at 13.5%.

We tried just about everybody on the team and it was still a failure. To me, it wasn't the systems, the systems proved to be successful in the past, IMO, it was the personnel.

Like everything always is, it’s probably a mix.

Doesn’t have to be 100% one way or another. Versteeg is not the difference between a top 10 power play and a last place power play.

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Ferland might not be the definitive answer, but he's also the only player that actually managed to mesh well with Gaudreau and Monahan since Hudler. The chemistry between them was unmistakable and the stats proved it.

Gaudreau and Monahan had career years this season with him as their RW with 84 points and 64 points respectively and then when you look at previous season in 16-17, when Ferland was permanently put on a line with these 2, it was instant success (Gaudreau: 26 points in 23 games & Monahan: 23 points in 23 games). Ferland helped make these guys better without a doubt. I don't know if Lindholm can find the same chemistry, but it's a big risk and will be a big fail if he doesn't.

That is true and I respect your stance. However, who is to say he wouldn't #### the bed just like Hudler did the second year after putting up 80 points? Especially, with the second half production from Ferland being in the gutter this year.

[dissentowner]

I would pass on Reider. Would rather have a guy like Mangiapane in that spot.

[Strange Brew]

I don’t really understand why people only look at Ferland’s second half when evaluating him. He was on a 30 goal pace at one point with not too much PP time. He has improved his production every year. Maddeningly inconsistent but also not like he isn’t still a young player. Late bloomer with far fewer NHL games than Lindholm.

I don’t get it. You can like the trade without dismissing Ferland.

If we only looked at how Flames performed in the second half you’d conclude we have about the worst team in the league.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

It was 100% personnel last season because the second we lost Kris Versteeg, the PP went to the dumper. From 11th place at 22.1% (top 10 in 16-17) all the way down to 30th place at 13.5%.

We tried just about everybody on the team and it was still a failure. To me, it wasn't the systems, the systems proved to be successful in the past, IMO, it was the personnel.

You have been pounding this singular message for months. Step back and ask yourself the plausibility of it: Versteeg was SO important, that the Flames are simply incapable of putting a PP together without him.

Or... they had a terrible PP set up with very little movement, and utilized their personnel terribly, to the point where, once other teams knew what they were doing, they were not able to recover and shake the slump they were mired in.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I know, right? It's almost as if he doesn't agree that your narrow view of the team is the definitive one. Crazy.

Well then, I guess you just loved all the success we've had with acquisition like Troy Brouwer, Mason Raymond, Brandon Bollig, Jonas Hiller, Brian Elliott, Eddie Lack, Curtis Lazar, Freddie Hamilton, Jyrki Jokipakka, Niklas Grossman, Alex Chiasson, Hunter Shinkaruk, Chris Stewart and etc. The jury is still out on Hamonic too.

You know, after such a failure of a season, you'd think some critical analysis would be warranted. But no, lets just keep going after the same type of players and hoping for different results as if the last 30 years of mediocrity has been forgotten. Yes, I'm definitely the crazy one for trying to think differently.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Well then, I guess you just loved all the success we've had with acquisition like Troy Brouwer, Mason Raymond, Brandon Bollig, Jonas Hiller, Brian Elliott, Eddie Lack, Curtis Lazar, Freddie Hamilton, Jyrki Jokipakka, Niklas Grossman, Alex Chiasson, Hunter Shinkaruk, Chris Stewart and etc. The jury is still out on Hamonic too.

You know, after such a failure of a season, you'd think some critical analysis would be warranted. But no, lets just keep going after the same type of players and hoping for different results as if the last 30 years of mediocrity has been forgotten. Yes, I'm definitely the crazy one for trying to think differently.

What do any of those guys have to to do with the guys they are rumored to be going after?
Or are you basically saying that in some sort of magical way BT should just produce some top line wingers.

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I don’t really understand why people only look at Ferland’s second half when evaluating him. He was on a 30 goal pace at one point with not too much PP time. He has improved his production every year. Maddeningly inconsistent but also not like he isn’t still a young player. Late bloomer with far fewer NHL games than Lindholm.

I don’t get it. You can like the trade without dismissing Ferland.

If we only looked at how Flames performed in the second half you’d conclude we have about the worst team in the league.

A legitimate Top 6 player is fairly consistent with production. A legitimate Top 6 player does other intangibles when they are not producing. That does not define Ferland.

I don't really understand why people only remember his one playoff series when he was dominant. Outside of that, he has not been very physical. He had the Glencross syndrome when he forgot what made him successful and decided to play like a skilled player. Glencross was out of the league quick and I think Ferland might be too.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

100% personnel? Interesting theory.
I saw a lot of issues with the overall set up including where shooters were placed and having Johnny playing off the wall.

It worked though. It's the exact same set up as the Maple Leaf's #2 PP. 1-3-1, left shooter on the left flank and a right shooter on the right flank. They happened to find success with the exact same set up. Just like us in 16-17 (top 10), 2017 playoffs (#1) and like I said, before Versteeg went down #11.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

What do any of those guys have to to do with the guys they are rumored to be going after?
Or are you basically saying that in some sort of magical way BT should just produce some top line wingers.

Well to be fair, Reaves, the latest darling, is cut from the same cloth as most of those guys. At least rumours of Reider and Ryan are hopeful to a degree as they can play and aren't completely washed up "grit" guys like Brouwer, Bollig, Glass etc.

Does magical mean Tre goes out and signs a guy like Vanek or Grabner who have been readily available and produced well for other teams? For once it would be nice to see an emphasis on adding a weapon that only costs you a little cap room instead of more depth pluggers will finally get it done on the PP (which they may), especially after losing an offensive threat like Hamilton.

Another year or two like the last few season and this team is going to start to look old in the tooth fans will all be wondering what happened to the window.

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Well then, I guess you just loved all the success we've had with acquisition like Troy Brouwer, Mason Raymond, Brandon Bollig, Jonas Hiller, Brian Elliott, Eddie Lack, Curtis Lazar, Freddie Hamilton, Jyrki Jokipakka, Niklas Grossman, Alex Chiasson, Hunter Shinkaruk, Chris Stewart and etc. The jury is still out on Hamonic too.

You know, after such a failure of a season, you'd think some critical analysis would be warranted. But no, lets just keep going after the same type of players and hoping for different results as if the last 30 years of mediocrity has been forgotten. Yes, I'm definitely the crazy one for trying to think differently.

Other than Brouwer, not a single player had the pedigree that Ryan or even Rieder have. All of those players were reclamation projects. Ryan and Rieder are consistent 30+ points, 10+ goal players.

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I don’t really understand why people only look at Ferland’s second half when evaluating him. He was on a 30 goal pace at one point with not too much PP time. He has improved his production every year. Maddeningly inconsistent but also not like he isn’t still a young player. Late bloomer with far fewer NHL games than Lindholm.

I don’t get it. You can like the trade without dismissing Ferland.

If we only looked at how Flames performed in the second half you’d conclude we have about the worst team in the league.

IIRC, he missed a game or two around the time the slump started. I still think Ferland’s slump may have been partly due to a lingering injury.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Well to be fair, Reaves, the latest darling, is cut from the same cloth as most of those guys.

By magical way, you mean like go out and sign a guy like Vanek or Grabner who have been available and produced well for other teams.....for once it would be nice to see an emphasis on adding a weapon that only costs you a little cap room instead of more depth pluggers on long term, terrible deals.

I'm not a fan of Reaves and I've said that.
Vanek and Grabner are totally different guys. Vanek is a incredibly flawed player that you won't win with. Those are not guys I think the Flames should sign. The Flames do not need more one dimensional incomplete players.
Grabner though in a bottom 6 role I like.
But I don't know what you mean by depth pluggers. I don't view Ryan or Reider as a plugger.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by keenan87

That is true and I respect your stance. However, who is to say he wouldn't #### the bed just like Hudler did the second year after putting up 80 points? Especially, with the second half production from Ferland being in the gutter this year.

You're right, Ferland did have a bad second half. But like I said, he might not be the best answer, but he was the only answer at the time. They thrived together and he helped Gaudreau and Monahan to career years. To me, it's a big risk in breaking that chemistry and acquiring Elias Lindholm who's not a bonafide 1st liner himself.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You have been pounding this singular message for months. Step back and ask yourself the plausibility of it: Versteeg was SO important, that the Flames are simply incapable of putting a PP together without him.

Or... they had a terrible PP set up with very little movement, and utilized their personnel terribly, to the point where, once other teams knew what they were doing, they were not able to recover and shake the slump they were mired in.

16-17 PP = Top 10
2017 playoffs = #1
17-18 Before Versteeg went down = #11.
Without Versteeg = #30

Whatever analysis or theory you think is right, is debunked by the actual facts and results. Whatever skillset Versteeg brought to the table, it could not be imitated by anyone else. He wasn't even that great of a player, so it's a damning indictment on the GM for not having a suitable replacement in place because it helped cost us our season.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Correlation does not equal causation.

[rhino]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Okey first of all... the Flames being rumored to be interested in a guy does not = a signing. Not even close. Heck I'd say the Flames will sign maybe one of the guys they're rumored to (Ryan would be my guess).



Why are people constantly penciling in Ryan on the fourth line? He got 38 points last year which would have put him 6th among Flame forwards. He's not going to be a fourth liner guys... hell I'd say he's more likely to be a 1st liner then he is a 4th liner given how much the coach reportably likes him.

So where do you play Monahan?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

16-17 PP = Top 10
2017 playoffs = #1
17-18 Before Versteeg went down = #11.
Without Versteeg = #30

Whatever analysis or theory you think is right, is debunked by the actual facts and results. Whatever skillset Versteeg brought to the table, it could not be imitated by anyone else. He wasn't even that great of a player, so it's a damning indictment on the GM for not having a suitable replacement in place because it helped cost us our season.

Again, this simple (and very small sampled) stat is not proof of your singular conclusion.

Ask yourself if it seems reasonable that a replacement level player like Versteeg actually swings the talent level on the Flames from 11th to 30th in the league. Or, perhaps there might be other things going on.