Hindsight: Would you rather: Dougie, Martin Jones, or Barzal

[jlh2640]

Jones is good not great. Barzal is great but no one knew he would be or that we would draft him. I’m happy with Hamilton.

[Erick Estrada]

Barzal is having a nice season on a non-playoff team but I would pump the brakes a bit as he will probably take a step back next season.

[Corral]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Top goalscoring defenseman in the NHL overvalued? What does this guy have to do to get respect? Hell even advanced stats back up that he’s really good.

Play like he's frickin 6 foot 6. Dominate games on the blue line and seriously cut down on the lazy plays.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

In hindsight the flames never should have drafted Sam Bennett

Ok. I'll play this game, who exactly should the Flames have drafted over Bennett?

[Hackey]

That draft was pretty weak. It would have been nice if Draisaitl fell to us. When you look who went after Bennett though there aren't a lot of names that jump out. Ehlers or Pastranak sure but that's really cherry picking.

[CSharp]

Without a doubt, I think Hamilton is what the Flames needed, a big right shooting first line D-man. The first season Dougie was terrible, but over the years, I think he has turned out to be the best acquisition that Treliving has made. Barzal - Meh, Flames finally have depth down the center and left wings. They've got too many people shooting left. They need more depth in right shooting right wingers. Jones - Meh. This Flames team is a goalie killer. So, I don't think Jones will have average to below average GAA. Hamilton is the right choice here.

[FlamesNation23]

I remember i really wanted kyle connor that year and barzal was my number 2. But im very happy with hamilton and would keep him over all the other options

[カナダ人です]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Barzal is having a nice season on a non-playoff team but I would pump the brakes a bit as he will probably take a step back next season.

It is funny seeing fans disparage players from other teams because they aren't "their guy". I live in Vancouver and Canucks fans seem convinced Boeser is at least twice the player Barzal is. What if they switched teams?

Anyway, Barzal is a beast. He was the 1st overall pick in the Bantam draft and would have gone higher at the NHL draft if he didn't get injured in his draft year. He is a great skater, has really high hockey IQ and fantastic vision. He's been hyped in the lower mainland for a long time.

That said, true top pairing Dmen are probably harder to come by. So,

Hamilton
Barzal
Jones

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by CSharp

Without a doubt, I think Hamilton is what the Flames needed, a big right shooting first line D-man. The first season Dougie was terrible, but over the years, I think he has turned out to be the best acquisition that Treliving has made. Barzal - Meh, Flames finally have depth down the center and left wings. They've got too many people shooting left. They need more depth in right shooting right wingers. Jones - Meh. This Flames team is a goalie killer. So, I don't think Jones will have average to below average GAA. Hamilton is the right choice here.

Barzal is a right handed shot.

[dieHARDflameZ]

I’ll take the 6’ 6”, 210 lb right shot d-man every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

He’s tied for the league lead in goals by a dman and would certainly be leading if our head coach would have played him on the PP in the first half of the season.

I know he has the occasional gaffe and certainly takes some pretty lazy penalties at times but the positives far outweigh the negatives.

[Fan in Exile]

It floors me that people talk about Dougie's size as a major asset. He doesn't use his size. He's a great skater but tends to be lazy and let players get past him despite his speed and size and then take bad penalties because of it.

Yes, he scores a good amount of goals for a defenseman and he has even bigger offensive upside than he's shown. God knows he should have been on the powerplay all season. He's a valuable player but without a really solid partner you couldn't put him on the top pairing. It's debatable if he can even be considered top pairing defensively (out there being matched with other team's top lines even strength and on PK) on the Flames because GG tends to prefer Brodie and Hamonic in those situations. Of course he may well be misguided in that preference.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

It floors me that people talk about Dougie's size as a major asset. He doesn't use his size. He's a great skater but tends to be lazy and let players get past him despite his speed and size and then take bad penalties because of it.

.

He's not physical but he does use his size in terms of having the wing span to use the stick really effectively and even just angle players.

Would be nice if he was more of a bruiser. But he never has been and never will be.

But size is about more than physicality. It is still an advantage.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

He's not physical but he does use his size in terms of having the wing span to use the stick really effectively and even just angle players.

Would be nice if he was more of a bruiser. But he never has been and never will be.

But size is about more than physicality. It is still an advantage.

Sure I can concede that. I don't dislike Dougie. I just think he's not the main guy on our defence or even his pairing and he never will be. He's not a dominant player.

[Love]

Originally Posted by FlamesNation23

I remember i really wanted kyle connor that year and barzal was my number 2. But im very happy with hamilton and would keep him over all the other options

Same. I was heavily on the Kyle Connor wagon in 2015 and he’s been looking great in Winnipeg. I’ve heard elsewhere that Colin White was the target if we had stayed at #15 though and I’d take Dougie quite easily over White + 2 seconds.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Ok. I'll play this game, who exactly should the Flames have drafted over Bennett?

At the time the Bennett pick was an absolute no-brainer, but looking back at the first round I think one could make a solid case to select Nylander, Larkin, Ehlers, or Pastrnak instead.

[GreenLantern2814]

I would like to point out that true #1 D are, in fact, easier to acquire than #1Cs.

Norris trophy winners change teams all the time, in the prime of their careers.

Prior to Ryan Johansen, there wasn't a team not named the Bruins trading #1Cs, because they are virtually impossible to get outside the draft.

[dieHARDflameZ]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I would like to point out that true #1 D are, in fact, easier to acquire than #1Cs.

Norris trophy winners change teams all the time, in the prime of their careers.

Prior to Ryan Johansen, there wasn't a team not named the Bruins trading #1Cs, because they are virtually impossible to get outside the draft.

Sorry, which Norris trophy winners are changing teams all the time in the prime of their careers? The only one I can think of is Subban and that was a stupid move by the Habs.

Other than that, it’s pretty much unheard of.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Norris trophy winners change teams all the time, in the prime of their careers.

Prior to Ryan Johansen, there wasn't a team not named the Bruins trading #1Cs, because they are virtually impossible to get outside the draft.

Originally Posted by dieHARDflameZ

Sorry, which Norris trophy winners are changing teams all the time in the prime of their careers? The only one I can think of is Subban and that was a stupid move by the Habs.

So, if I can follow GreenLantern's logic here:

Norris trophy winners are easy to acquire, because one got traded once.

Number-one centres are impossible to acquire, because only one got traded once.

Sounds legit.

[getbak]

I don't think Jones should even be in this "either or" debate. The Kings weren't going to trade him to Calgary and he didn't go to the Bruins until after the Hamilton deal was already done. The Bruins didn't end up flipping him until June 30, so there was definitely time for Treliving to get in on the action (and I'd say it's safe to believe he was trying to make a deal because Ramo was re-signed the day after Jones went to San Jose).

The "either or" for Jones is more realistically Tkachuk.



I wonder what the Flames were offering for Jones?

The Sharks gave up their 2016 first rounder and Sean Kuraly. Kuraly was a 2011 fifth round pick who was already 4 years from his Draft and could easily have walked away from the Bruins, leaving them with nothing for him. He also could have chosen to sign with the Bruins after his senior year without them trading for him.

From the Flames' perspective, the 2016 first rounders should have had equal value, although, I guess the Bruins may have thought the Sharks' pick had a better chance of being better since the Flames had just come off a playoff season and now had Hamilton. Adding Jones to the mix would have made the Flames a potential Cup contender.

As it turned out, the Flames pick was 6th overall and the Sharks was 29th. Who knows what would have happened had the Flames started the 2015-16 season with Jones as the undisputed starter, rather than the three-headed-monster? It's a safe bet that Tkachuk wouldn't be a Flame right now, even if they didn't trade away the pick for Jones.


You'd think a guy like Bill Arnold would have had more value to the Bruins than Sean Kuraly at the time. Maybe the Flames weren't willing to give up a first rounder. They may have offered a better prospect and a worse pick and the Bruins chose the better pick and worse prospect.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

So, if I can follow GreenLantern's logic here:

Norris trophy winners are easy to acquire, because one got traded once.

Number-one centres are impossible to acquire, because only one got traded once.

Sounds legit.

Not my point at all. Since the 2005 lockout, Chris Pronger (twice), Niedermayer, Rafalski, Chara, Redden, Bouwmeester, Shattenkirk, Suter, Weber, Subban, Erik Johnson, Brent Burns, Brian Campbell, Ryan McDonagh, Dion Phaneuf, Seth Jones, Dougie Hamilton, have all reached free agency/been traded. Erik Karlsson is soon going to be on that list, and possibly Drew Doughty. Whatever you think of that list, every single player on it was a 1st pairing player when they moved.

Outside of Ryan Johansen, Joe Thornton and Tyler Seguin, how many #1Cs have changed teams in the prime of their careers? Centre is an inherently more valuable position, I don't know how this is even a question. You can win a Stanley Cup without a Norris defender. You can't without a #1C. If you don't have a #2C who's better than most teams' #1s, you're in for a tough time.