Explosion at Ariana Grande Concert in England

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I have trouble believing that a propaganda and recruiting magazine is telling the outright truth about the end goals of the organization.

The organization is its members, and this is exactly what you said it is: a propaganda magazine. That's the message to prospective recruits. "This is what you're signing on for. This is your mission, should you join us".

I've no doubt that there are some members of ISIS, including at the leadership level, who are exploiting the faithful for cynical reasons, because that's true of every purportedly religious organization. But when you see people blowing themselves up and killing people in the process, this is the message they've latched onto, and why they think their deaths are righteous and necessary.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

To me it has nothing to do with ruling the world, or even destroying other faiths. they might be the accompanying goal but not the main goal. To me terrorism has changed. It used to be about forcing a political agenda or a type of change.

Now it to me and its my theory is this.

ISIS wants the world to hate Islam, they want to create a visceral reaction to these acts of terror, they want the world to distrust Islam, and close their borders to Islam, so that the poor and the disenfranchised will only have one choice, and that's to return home, and to blame the West and then . . . to wage war against the West.

This is all about turning the world against Islam, and its all about turning Islam against the World.

I don't really agree with this theory at all.

For one, Islam isn't one religion. There are various sects, and some of them hate one another more than the other religions. They are literally committing genocide against other Islamic sects around the world.

What I see is a destabilized part of the world (thanks to years of interference from the west - mainly the USA and Britain) who keep that part of the world destabilized in order to have more control. There is a long history stemming from the 1st world war of the west making deals with Arabs for support, and then turning away from those deals once they get what they want. You have generations that have grown in a system of instability and violence. A system where dictators and radical clerics control the nation. Where people are bereft of many freedoms. On top of this, what is there to hope for in the future? How many people have lost relatives?

There are suicide bombers in China as well (they have also had cars driving into crowds in China) and of course Russia has also had their share of terrorism. There are no borders.

Propagandists swoop in, give the people hope in the form of religion, but teach them a twisted, hateful version. It is not difficult to show them that the west has stolen their freedom, and they start encouraging people to lash out. Then they fuel the dream of an Islamic State that (once again, is again corrupted by what they want to gain) is free from outside influences (namely people coming in and stealing their resources and futures), and how they will finally live in a sort of paradise.

Meanwhile, how much oil are these leaders selling on the black market to KNOWING nations, making them more rich and powerful, and with the help of other nation that are not directly involved in the conflict, are able to perpetuate this cycle.

It is an age old issue - the disenfranchised get abused, someone comes in with a rallying cry of sorts, and because there is literally nothing else they can do to better themselves, they fall in line slowly until they are on the front lines with rallying cries of their own trying to convert more and more people to their cause.

This is going to take generations to figure out. Generations of death and destruction to overcome now. I don't know how to fix it, but the end game is all about power and influence, and of course the good old accumulation of wealth. ISIS is making a lot of money selling oil, embargoes be damned. ISIS buys a lot of weapons, embargoes be damned.

Now you have victims on both sides - the people in the west who are victims of these heinous acts of terrorism, and the people caught up and trapped in ISIS controlled lands who are not a part of their ideology.

This has nothing to do with religion. Anyone that looks at this as a "Muslim issue" is not looking deep enough. Monsters are using the tools at their disposal in order to control a population. If there was no religion, it would quickly move onto another tool (and for many, they don't follow because of religion, but the quality of life that it can afford, or the simply the satisfaction of striking back in any way they can).

Humans have a long history of using each other, killing each other, raping each other, and stealing from one another. Humans have a long history of genocide. Humans have a long history of doing the very worst imaginable to one another, and they don't need and have never needed religion to do so. This has always been more political than religious, but it is wrapped-up in a nice religious package that people find easier to identify.

My thoughts and prayers are with everyone in Manchester tonight, and everywhere else that you find monsters brutalizing the innocent. It feels like the only way this is ever going to stop is if aliens come down and slay these damn monsters and weed them out of our gene pool. The propensity for people to act in such a cold, heartless fashion everywhere you look is something that absolutely horrifies me at times, and moments like today's bombing brings that right up to the surface.

[Kjesse]

Good post Calgary4Life.

Sometimes you don't even have to be disenfranchised. In the US, there was a publication called "Soldier of Fortune". It sometimes published classified ads suggesting that for money, the person who posted the advertisement will kill someone for you, a person of your choice.

Of course the magazine was sued when it actually could be proved the killings came from the ads in the magazine, and some lawsuits against them for that succeeded. The magazine no longer exists. People were killed as a result of these for-profit ads.

North America does not have the automatic moral high ground regardless of the predominate religions that exist here.

It doesn't necessarily have to be religion or even a destabilized area of the world, to commit senseless killings. It happens in North America every day as well.

But still, the religious angle probably propels some people further and creates this us-against-them mentality on both sides, so in that respect the Captain has a point. I do think there are larger interests at stake and those interests use their influence to achieve goals which include conflict.

[DiracSpike]

Except that doesn't explain people from the west joining these death cults. A guy who grew up in braeside ran away to join Isis, no exposure at all to those factors you mentioned.
Latin America has been destabilized and poor throughout most of its history but there's no Chileans committing terror acts.

This is an issue almost wholly confined to Islam. It doesn't mean Muslims should be discriminated against but it does mean people need to recognize reality and stop blaming other factors.

[RougeUnderoos]

We all know that people who commit these atrocities are motivated by some crazed belief that it will send them to their particular idea of paradise in the afterlife. That they are doing the work that a supernatural power would approve of.

Sure, we can say that if not for that, something else would be the motivator, but if not for that doesn't really count. Because it's not that.

I doubt it's a coincidence that this concert by an American pop star was the target, considering the events of the last couple days.

[ToewsFan]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Except that doesn't explain people from the west joining these death cults. A guy who grew up in braeside ran away to join Isis, no exposure at all to those factors you mentioned.
Latin America has been destabilized and poor throughout most of its history but there's no Chileans committing terror acts.

This is an issue almost wholly confined to Islam. It doesn't mean Muslims should be discriminated against but it does mean people need to recognize reality and stop blaming other factors.

Young men that are disenfranchised, pissed off at the world, and have too much testosterone, will be vulnerable to this type of propaganda.

[flamesforcup]

Damn shame. As a muslim sadly i will be preparing to face the backlash for another attack. Please do not blame us blame the terrorists.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by ToewsFan

Young men that are disenfranchised, pissed off at the world, and have too much testosterone, will be vulnerable to this type of propaganda.

There will always be sad lonely angry pricks, usually they sit harmlessly on their computers making fools of themselves, occasionally something manages to galvanise some of them, the idiots that blow themselves up for ISIS are no different than the gunmen in the US that go on shooting rampages in schools every few months, ISIS/Al Queda is influencing muslim idiots the way that right wing gun nuts are influenced by Rush Limbough and the conservative right wing, the only difference being that the right wing isn't trying to get idiots to kill for it therefore it's a bit less effective as a tool.

[djsFlames]

This makes me more angry than attacks in recent years.

It doesn't get more innocent than teens at an Ariana concert. Who are you waging war against, exactly? Many of these young people probably haven't learned enough about what's going on in the world to even understand it.

I really don't like human kind some days, just knowing that there are people out there with so little compassion and so much hate.

We're doing a lousy job of running this planet and we've voted sociopaths and psychopaths into positions of power. I'm glad my stay here is relatively short cause I don't like a lot of what I see every day. ####ing bitching and misery every time you turn on the TV. Ignorance is bliss, man. Just makes me sad to know what's happening out there. The news offers no hope, it's just despair and a deep fear for the future and where we are headed.

Just do good, every day. You can't change tragedies like this or what such lost individuals like the culprits here are gonna do, but do what you can within your own life and means. Promote love and compassion, don't come back at an issue like this with stuff like "we need to wipe them out". It makes you no better. These people want to lure you into that line of thinking and you're biting at the snap of a finger. Be better than that. You don't have to be religious to practice good principles. Also radicalized thought isn't religion, it's people. People that feel misunderstood, hated, oppressed, and are looking for a purpose, even a horribly misguided one. The way we stem the tide of ugly things like this is to be better people to our neighbours so that they don't feel alienated enough to get involved in #### like this.

[robaur]

We don't have a confirmed report that it was a muslim who did the attack so why are so many people automatically assuming that it is?

Bomb goes off....is considered terrorism....and its automatically someone who follows islam?

This kind of reaction is a root cause of many cultural issues in western countries. No wonder so many innocent muslims have to put up with so much racism.

Anyway, very sad events....it's truly devastating.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by robaur

We don't have a confirmed report that it was a muslim who did the attack so why are so many people automatically assuming that it is?

Bomb goes off....is considered terrorism....and its automatically someone who follows islam?

This kind of reaction is a root cause of many cultural issues in western countries. No wonder so many innocent muslims have to put up with so much racism.

Anyway, very sad events....it's truly devastating.

I suppose I could be wrong or have a bad memory but I can't remember anyone other than a Muslim that would strap a bomb to his body and blow up themselves and innocent people.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I don't really agree with this theory at all.

For one, Islam isn't one religion. There are various sects, and some of them hate one another more than the other religions. They are literally committing genocide against other Islamic sects around the world.

What I see is a destabilized part of the world (thanks to years of interference from the west - mainly the USA and Britain) who keep that part of the world destabilized in order to have more control.

Sorry, but this outlook - and it's widespread - betrays a woeful ignorance of history. It's fundamentally wrong on two fronts:

1) If foreign imperialism and meddling in itself gave rise to radical terrorism, why aren't we seeing terrorism in all the other destabilized parts of the world? Vietnam was colonized and brutally exploited for centuries, and less than 50 years ago being bombed into the stone age by Americans. Where are the Vietnamese jihadis blowing themselves up at restaurants and pop concerts? Or the Congolese terrorists? Or the Hondurans?

2) How does it explain that everywhere Islamic societies borders with non-Islamic societies we have radicalized violence? Not only in the Middle East, but in Nigeria, Chad, Kenya, India, China, Indonesia, and the Philippines? Why aren't the Christians, Hindus, and Buddhists in those regions blowing themselves up and slaughtering civilians?

There is a political dimension to this issue. But religion is the catalyst. And certain strains of Islam have proven remarkably effective agents for radicalization. Far more effective than any Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, or secular ideology today.

[getbak]

Police have arrested a 23 year-old man in connection to the bombing, and have confirmed that the person who set off the bomb died at the scene.

http://globalnews.ca/news/3470399/ma...oncert-arrest/

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

There's a political element, and a historical element, and an economic element, and hell, probably a geographic element underlying this. You can have a reasonable debate as to what factors are more influential. But there's clearly no debate that religion is somewhere near the top. Again, go back and read the article I posted a link to. They're clear about why they think what they're doing is the right thing to do... if you think they're just lying about their motivations... why? What makes you think that? If they're truly motivated by exclusively geopolitical factors, why wouldn't they say so?

In fact, they do mention them among their reasons for fighting, but they're just not the main drivers, and even Western aggression is characterized as a crime against the faith:

Originally Posted by Dabiq

1. Because we do not believe in Islamic monotheism.
2. Because we do not obey Allah.
3. Because of the atheists among us.
4. Because of our crimes against the religion of Islam.
5. Because of our crimes against Muslims.
6. Because of our invasion of Muslim lands.

Again, I'd suggest people read this... in fact I don't think you can credibly talk about ISIS without having done so. http://clarionproject.org/factsheets...-the-cross.pdf

This article, now a few years old, is also pretty much required reading on the topic: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...-wants/384980/

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Sorry, but this outlook - and it's widespread - betrays a woeful ignorance of history. It's fundamentally wrong on two fronts:

1) If foreign imperialism and meddling in itself gave rise to radical terrorism, why aren't we seeing terrorism in all the other destabilized parts of the world? Vietnam was colonized and brutally exploited for centuries, and less than 50 years ago being bombed into the stone age by Americans. Where are the Vietnamese jihadis blowing themselves up at restaurants and pop concerts? Or the Congolese terrorists? Or the Hondurans?

2) How does it explain that everywhere Islamic societies borders with non-Islamic societies we have radicalized violence? Not only in the Middle East, but in Nigeria, Chad, Kenya, India, China, Indonesia, and the Philippines? Why aren't the Christians, Hindus, and Buddhists in those regions blowing themselves up and slaughtering civilians?

There is a political dimension to this issue. But religion is the catalyst. And certain strains of Islam have proven remarkably effective agents for radicalization. Far more effective than any Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, or secular ideology today.

The Viet Cong used all kinds of terrorist tactics during the war including blowing up restaurants and markets. But they won. There is no reason for blowing people up anymore.

Africa is a terrible example too given the vast difference in armies in the region. You'd be nuts to challenge the Chadian army.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by robaur

We don't have a confirmed report that it was a muslim who did the attack so why are so many people automatically assuming that it is?

Bomb goes off....is considered terrorism....and its automatically someone who follows islam?

This kind of reaction is a root cause of many cultural issues in western countries. No wonder so many innocent muslims have to put up with so much racism.

Anyway, very sad events....it's truly devastating.

Quack!

ISIS claims responsibility for deadly Manchester attack
ISIS says one of its members carried out the suicide bombing attack in Manchester that killed 22 people and injured dozens others, The Associated Press reports.

Earlier today, Greater Manchester Police said they arrested a 23-year-old man in the south of the city in connection with the attack.

[ToewsFan]

ISIS Sucks.

[DiracSpike]

What a surprise.......

It's not racist to acknowledge that literally the only people who strap a bomb filled with nails and screws to themselves to attack soft targets in the West are radicalized muslims.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

What a surprise.......

It's not racist to acknowledge that literally the only people who strap a bomb filled with nails and screws to themselves to attack soft targets in the West are radicalized muslims.

No, but only because most other radicals have a stronger sense of self preservation, so are less likely to strap bombs to themselves and opt instead to kill from a distance. Nail bombs were, as one example, sometimes used by the IRA. And as the Quebec City shooter demonstrated, non-Muslims are also quite capable of radicalization.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I don't really agree with this theory at all.

For one, Islam isn't one religion. There are various sects, and some of them hate one another more than the other religions. They are literally committing genocide against other Islamic sects around the world.

What I see is a destabilized part of the world (thanks to years of interference from the west - mainly the USA and Britain) who keep that part of the world destabilized in order to have more control. There is a long history stemming from the 1st world war of the west making deals with Arabs for support, and then turning away from those deals once they get what they want. You have generations that have grown in a system of instability and violence. A system where dictators and radical clerics control the nation. Where people are bereft of many freedoms. On top of this, what is there to hope for in the future? How many people have lost relatives?

There are suicide bombers in China as well (they have also had cars driving into crowds in China) and of course Russia has also had their share of terrorism. There are no borders.

Propagandists swoop in, give the people hope in the form of religion, but teach them a twisted, hateful version. It is not difficult to show them that the west has stolen their freedom, and they start encouraging people to lash out. Then they fuel the dream of an Islamic State that (once again, is again corrupted by what they want to gain) is free from outside influences (namely people coming in and stealing their resources and futures), and how they will finally live in a sort of paradise.

Meanwhile, how much oil are these leaders selling on the black market to KNOWING nations, making them more rich and powerful, and with the help of other nation that are not directly involved in the conflict, are able to perpetuate this cycle.

It is an age old issue - the disenfranchised get abused, someone comes in with a rallying cry of sorts, and because there is literally nothing else they can do to better themselves, they fall in line slowly until they are on the front lines with rallying cries of their own trying to convert more and more people to their cause.

This is going to take generations to figure out. Generations of death and destruction to overcome now. I don't know how to fix it, but the end game is all about power and influence, and of course the good old accumulation of wealth. ISIS is making a lot of money selling oil, embargoes be damned. ISIS buys a lot of weapons, embargoes be damned.

Now you have victims on both sides - the people in the west who are victims of these heinous acts of terrorism, and the people caught up and trapped in ISIS controlled lands who are not a part of their ideology.

This has nothing to do with religion. Anyone that looks at this as a "Muslim issue" is not looking deep enough. Monsters are using the tools at their disposal in order to control a population. If there was no religion, it would quickly move onto another tool (and for many, they don't follow because of religion, but the quality of life that it can afford, or the simply the satisfaction of striking back in any way they can).

Humans have a long history of using each other, killing each other, raping each other, and stealing from one another. Humans have a long history of genocide. Humans have a long history of doing the very worst imaginable to one another, and they don't need and have never needed religion to do so. This has always been more political than religious, but it is wrapped-up in a nice religious package that people find easier to identify.

My thoughts and prayers are with everyone in Manchester tonight, and everywhere else that you find monsters brutalizing the innocent. It feels like the only way this is ever going to stop is if aliens come down and slay these damn monsters and weed them out of our gene pool. The propensity for people to act in such a cold, heartless fashion everywhere you look is something that absolutely horrifies me at times, and moments like today's bombing brings that right up to the surface.

So you don't agree with my theory but you do.

Look its easy to blame the West and they need to take a big bite of a blame sandwich, but it goes far beyond that. Groups like ISIS and Al Queda are all about charismatic leaders who want to acquire power and wealth.

ISIS their leaders wanted to form a caliphate, their own nation of basically slaves, kept in line by terror and a f'd up interpretation of their religion.

Al Quaeda wanted to basically purify their holy lands, and not for all of Islam, but the more radical interpretation,

Leadership in these groups is no different then Hitler or Stalin or Mao with the exception that they didn't have a country to to subvert, they had a hypothetical, a religion without borders.

So yeah, their message was blame the West and strike back from our umbrella of righteousness. But I'm pretty convinced that even without interference from the West we would have seen the rise of groups like this anyways.