Klein " We already give more than our fair share"

[Red]

Originally posted by HBomb@Sep 17 2005, 08:56 PM
HBomb said..........

I agree. There's plenty of high paying jobs in Ft. Mac etc. If you don't like living off UI or walfare in the maritimes just pack it in and move here. Few years down the road you can move back home with a big bag of $$$
________
EASY VAPE USE

[Super-Rye]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty@Sep 17 2005, 11:34 AM
A quick quote from Making Economic Sense by M. Rothbard because I am too confusing to make sense:

And that is: contrary to carefully instilled myth, politicians and bureaucrats pay no taxes. Take, for example, a politician who receives a salary of, say, $80,000; assume he duly files his income tax return, and pays $20,000. We must realize that he does not in reality pay $20,000 in taxes; instead, he is simply a net tax-receiver of $60,000. The notion that he pays taxes is simply an accounting fiction, designed to bamboozle the citizenry into believing that he and the rest of us are on the same moral and financial footing before the law. He pays nothing; he simply is extracting $60,000 per annum from our pockets.

The same principle, too, applies to sales or property or any other tax. Bureaucrats and politicians do not pay them; they are simply subtracted from the net transfer to themselves from the body of taxpayers.

By that logic, I get paid by a bar who takes money from customers, therefore my money is not actually MINE and don't pay taxes, despite $200 a pay cheaque being extracted for taxes.

The man has a job, and he does it, he gets paid, and gets money taken away for taxes, he is a tax payer.

[duncan]

Originally posted by transplant99@Sep 17 2005, 06:17 PM

No they're not. They already give 12 BILLION dollars a year....of THEIR money.

And again...know why it is the fastest growing economy, lowest taxes and NO DEBT....because the people IN THAT province already toiled and paid for it for YEARS through the 90's.

WHere was the rest of Canada while that was going on? Oh yeah...still collecting transfer payments from Alberta!!



Enough is enough when the people whose money it is...say so.

It really passes ME off when every one else wants more and more and more...when all Alberta has done is give and give and give.....but when people were losing their homes by the thousands during the NEP....the rest of Canada was saying "fata you".

Payback is a bitch.

Tranny, I feel for you, I really do, but Alberta is not the only province that has had recessions, yet continued to pay transfer fees and get minimal return. Albertans were not the only ones to have federal decisions cost thousands there homes.
In the late 60's-70's, the federal government decided to put the clamps on Uranium mining and strip mining, due to environmental issues. Northern Ontario, saw many towns become ghost towns when these mines shut down, thousands lost their jobs, houses, everything.... including my parents, who had to move the family across the province, and live in a trailer until they could get on their feet. There was no federal assistance for them, no cut to transfer fees from the province, no handouts from Ottawa.
In the early 1990's, Mulroney decided to close reactors at the Bruce Nuclear Plant in the small town of Kincardine, Ontario. Mulroney decided to open a new plant in his riding in Quebec, while closing plants and reactors in Ontario. This was the Only major employer in Kincardine, and hundreds lost their homes, while many others saw their stores close, and property values plummet. No tears were shed nationwide there, it was just another day. Shortly after, NAFTA was introduced, and the industrial world, as southern-Ontario knew it, was devastated. Factories moved to the US and Mexico, skilled trade jobs disappeared, and unemployment went through the roof. In this small town alone, Gearco, Champion Parts, Stelco and Speidel left. half of the jobs in this community left the country. Businesses boarded up their windows, banks foreclosed on homes. Did Ottawa come to the rescue? Hell no, they bragged at how NAFTA created more jobs, by opening the market for our resources. The bragged about new jobs across Canada, but forgot about the thousands that were lost here. 1 factory stayed open here, but still cut their workforce from 1200 to 400. In a community of around 10 000, 3000 jobs were directly cut. No handouts came to this market, and Ontario was expected to continue on with equalizatio payments.
Ontario has also paid the fair share and more, and we want to change the way the system works.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by FireFly@Sep 17 2005, 07:41 PM
Right. I see now. Politicians just take and take and take. They don't do anything for the province or the people in it. And since WE have ELECTED to pay HIM, that's his fault. Gotcha. And because it's his fault, we should just go ahead and pay for the people everyone else elected too.... Forget Ontario paying the people they elect themselves. Alberta should just pay them too. Good plan.

Huh? Where did I say you should pay for people everyone else elected too? Oh wait I did not. That is my whole point.

Read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Sep 17 2005, 07:22 PM
What's the point of this? As long as FoL believes that taxes = theft and government = mafia, then there's no topic to discuss. Both 'sides' aren't speaking the same language here.

Though, if you truly do feel that the Canadian Government (or whatever country) is 'stealing' from you, FoL, you must feel pretty darn emasculated most of the time. I'd never let anyone treat me the way you let the government treat you, stealing your money and telling you what to do. Doesn't it speak volumes about your character if you truly believe these things, and yet plod along like the rest of us ignorant joe's? I assume you pay taxes...? Ride the bus? Enjoy fire/police protection? Aren't you massively hypocritical, if this is the case? And if so, how much can your opinion actually be worth? Just asking...

I really like this "if you don’t like it, then fata off" attitude. Have it ever occurred to you I want to live in a society I am in now, but I am trying to do my bit to make it more free and less collectivist? I want to stay where I am at, and through debate and arguments maybe persuade other people and get us closer to the point where we depend on ourselves? Rather than wait for the government “to take care of us”?

I am sorry, but I don’t see anything hypocritical about that.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by Thunderball@Sep 17 2005, 07:28 PM
Normally I'd be on FoL's side here, but to assume that people can live without government and taxation and what they get from said taxation is simply ridiculous.

Now, I think people should be taxed as little as possible for only necessary programs and that overtaxation for stupid programs should be stopped.

That being said, anarchy is a fool's dream. Look at what happened in New Orleans... that wasn't a freak occurance, or a bunch of "terrible black people", that was human nature. That is what we all, black, white or anything else, are liable to revert to without social controls. Humans are flawed creatures, naturally, our governing system is also flawed, but it keeps most of us in line most of the time, which is a start.

Yeah let’s look at what happened in New Orleans. The government failed to perform even its basic function - to protect people’s property. Both before flood (under funded levees) and post flood (looting, raping, killing, etc).

Did anyone expect a free society to rise the second the state officials lost control? After decades living under state, where people got used to be taken care of by the state? That is like throwing a guy in the water for the first time in his life and then expecting him to swim.

But I appreciate your views about taxation.

[duncan]

Originally posted by tripin_billie@Sep 18 2005, 01:01 AM
what gets me is that people in ontario sit and bitch about how the resources should be for all canadians etc, etc. They say things like this, that the privy council decided to screw the federal government. All the while, they fail to realize that the original champion of the idea that the provinces have domain over their natural resources was Geroge Brown, premier of Ontario. Its funny, because when it happened, it was Ontario being passed that what it felt was its own was being considered to belong to all of Canada. Oh, how funny it is.

I say, Klein has got it right this time. Tell Ontario and BC to go and make their own money.

I don't give a flying fata about your resource money. Keep your damn money. What I want is for Ontario to stop over-subsidizing the rest of the country as well. We pay an absurd amount of transfer fees as well, and get sweet dick all back. What we want is some more of the cash, that we put in it, back. We don't want you fataing share.

The Oil resources are yours, it should be yours. You extract it, you refine it, you should get the profits. Just like nickel, silver, gold and salt are mined in Ontario, and should be our resources. Just like Hydro electric power from Niagara, and nuclear power from Hydro One should be ours. Just like Northern Ontario forestry, southern Ontario industrial, etc. Ontario is still a 'have' province, we are not asking for your money, we are asking for a bigger return from our money.
When 'Mad Cow' happened, no federal money came to beef farmers in this area. As a special slap in the face, Ottawa brought in Alberta beef to serve at a demonstration that Canadian Beef was safe, while local beef farmers were going broke. Ontario and BC want to stop paying the have-nots at their expense, not get their hands in Klein's pockets. We can fend for ourselves, if we aren't funding others.

[transplant99]

So then Duncan...we agree. Good. I fully understand there have been lean times in that great province as well. My entire point however is this...if we dont learn from the past (NEP) then we are going to see a repeat. This all coming after ALBERTA did what IT needed to do, to get back on track as a have province.

Now then...what would the problem be here? At least as it exists now....it would come down to the Federal government....the Fiberals....or as I am wanting to refer them as, the bungling bunch of brow beaters.

Who elected them? Ontario...with a helping hand from the maratimes.

So the viotrol towards Ontario, though some what not accurate, is very understandable. At least from Albertas point of view.

When you say you dont want Ontario to pay as much as they are right now....who do you expect that the crooks will look to in order to make up the difference? One place and one place only....Alberta.

I say too damn bad for Ontario at this point...as Alberta already gives more than its fair share....has for years...and all that before, during and after the whole NEP raping episode.


Enough is enough.

[duncan]

I think the point McGuinty is making is that NFLD has its oil, and is bringing in its cash now, so why are they getting subsidized still. There are off-sea deposits near PEI, Nova Scotia and NB, tourism and industry can go there too, we have been subsidizing the losses in the fishing industry long enough, invest in your own future. Enough of living off the teet of the 'have' provinces, let us take care of our own cash. Alberta can keep their own resources, and we should keep ours too.

[MarchHare]

Originally posted by Trujew@Sep 17 2005, 09:00 PM
Actually (on global news if I remember correctly) it was the opposite

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/National/

Asked, for example, whether provincial resources should belong to all Canadians or only to those living in the province where the resource is found, 76 per cent said they belong to all. Even in Alberta, 55 per cent of respondents said the resources belong to the country.

And on the more general question of whether provinces should share royalty payments from resources, 42 per cent said at least part of the money should go to other Canadians.

Forty-seven per cent of Albertans also felt this way.

Emphasis mine.

So according to that poll, 55% of Albertans feel that provincial resources belong to all Canadians, and nearly half -- five percent more than the Canadian average -- believe that royalty payments should be shared.

CTV is reporting the same findings: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

Either Global is wrong or you misheard the report.

[transplant99]

So according to that poll, 55% of Albertans feel that provincial resources belong to all Canadians, and nearly half -- five percent more than the Canadian average -- believe that royalty payments should be shared.

Good grief.....the money from resources ARE being shared already.

to the tune of 12 frickin BILLION dollars a year.

I am so damn sick of the way the bleeding hearts like to frame these questions in polls and such.

Where do you think that 12 BILLION comes from?

the money fairy?

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally posted by transplant99@Sep 18 2005, 12:03 PM
Where do you think that 12 BILLION comes from?

the money fairy?

Wait a minute
You mean it doesn't?

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally posted by MarchHare@Sep 18 2005, 10:59 AM
Either Global is wrong or you misheard the report.

Global polls are almost always very slanted. They are worded in ways that the outcome can almost always be predetermined.
Also, they are only polling people of this city, who watch their news and can be bothered enough to go online and vote. That already creates a very biased test group.
Their polls can rarely be used as indicators of reality.

[MarchHare]

Originally posted by transplant99@Sep 18 2005, 01:03 PM

Good grief.....the money from resources ARE being shared already.

to the tune of 12 frickin BILLION dollars a year.

I am so damn sick of the way the bleeding hearts like to frame these questions in polls and such.

Where do you think that 12 BILLION comes from?

the money fairy?

Where did I say the money wasn't be shared?

I was only posted a poll that showed that nearly half of Albertans believe that it should be shared.

[Cube Inmate]

What a bunch of BS...who the resources "belong" to.

To those who ask why should they belong to Albertans any more than they belong to Canadians: if you want to make that argument, then ask yourself why should they belong to Canadians any more than to New Zealanders? Surely something like oil is a global resource, belonging to all of humanity!

Bah...

The oil belongs to Albertans because the freakin' constitution says so. End of story. If not for that, I'd prefer to say that the oil belongs to whoever the hell digs it up and produces it...stupid royalty system.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally posted by Cube Inmate@Sep 18 2005, 03:36 PM
What a bunch of BS...who the resources "belong" to.

To those who ask why should they belong to Albertans any more than they belong to Canadians: if you want to make that argument, then ask yourself why should they belong to Canadians any more than to New Zealanders? Surely something like oil is a global resource, belonging to all of humanity!

Bah...

The oil belongs to Albertans because the freakin' constitution says so. End of story. If not for that, I'd prefer to say that the oil belongs to whoever the hell digs it up and produces it...stupid royalty system.

Are you referring to your own post as BS?
Are you really comparing Canada's ownership of Canadian oil to New Zealand?

Just to inform you. Alberta is part of Canada, not New Zealand.

And that constitution that says it's Alberta's oil. Is that the Canadian constitution or the New Zealand constitution?

Worst aguement ever :tdown:

[Thunderball]

I think what he's getting at is that some people consider themselves a citizen of the world and that maybe resources should belong to everyone.

I disagree with it regardless. Oil in Sask belongs to Sask, Oil in Alberta belongs to Alberta. If Alberta left Canada, the Oil would be ours, why should it be any different if we're a part of this country. The constitution tends to agree with me.

Furthermore, a lot of people are dopes who don't understand that royalties already go to the Federal Government, as well as their taxes, many of which do not return to provide services in this province. Clever wording of this could also skew this survey. Also, is this not an online poll? what stops people from other provinces trying to be clever and voting yes?

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by Cube Inmate@Sep 18 2005, 11:36 PM
What a bunch of BS...who the resources "belong" to.

To those who ask why should they belong to Albertans any more than they belong to Canadians: if you want to make that argument, then ask yourself why should they belong to Canadians any more than to New Zealanders? Surely something like oil is a global resource, belonging to all of humanity!

Bah...

The oil belongs to Albertans because the freakin' constitution says so. End of story. If not for that, I'd prefer to say that the oil belongs to whoever the hell digs it up and produces it...stupid royalty system.

How about the oil belongs to someone who finds it, drills a hole and extracts it from the oil field?

Or would that be too fairy tale-ish?

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Winsor_Pilates@Sep 18 2005, 04:56 PM
Are you referring to your own post as BS?
Are you really comparing Canada's ownership of Canadian oil to New Zealand?

Just to inform you. Alberta is part of Canada, not New Zealand.

And that constitution that says it's Alberta's oil. Is that the Canadian constitution or the New Zealand constitution?

Worst aguement ever :tdown:

Actually, his argument is sound.

If Alberta's Oil should belong to all of Canada because the difference between Alberta and BC is merely a line on a map, why should national borders matter?

What is the difference between Alberta and Montana, except for a thicker line on a map?

People on the other side tend to be very self-serving with their arguments against jurisdiction over our oil.

Our oil does not belong to all Canadians. If you want to argue that artificially placed borders should not matter, then a Texan should have equal rights to our oil as a Nova Scotian.

Unfortunately for this argument, artificially placed borders do matter until such point as the constitution is changed.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by "fotze"+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ("fotze")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What if you someone else owns the mineral rights to that oil? What if someone else owns the mineral rights to the natural gas? What if a third party owns the coal rights and a fourth the groundwater?[/b]

?

<!--QuoteBegin-"fotze"
You get one of the biggest environmental liabilities in the world. Like in bakersfield.[/quote]

Evil capitalists are ruining our environment, is that what are you trying to say?

BTW That picture is from what, 19th century? How is that relevant?