Man charged after ‘multiple sexual assaults’ at West Edmonton Mall waterpark

[Krovikan]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Sure, i agree but screening is always going to have to be looked at in incidents like this, especially one that's fairly high profile now.

100% agree if he is found guilty, the most important thing for the government is to find out if their was something they could improve in the vetting system.

Even on low profile cases or non-criminal cases this should always be looked at when something goes wrong with the refugee system.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

People realise our modern Canadian notions of sexual propriety, age appropriateness, consent, etc. are not universal global norms, right? A significant portion of the men in world have sexual mores that would make the chauvinists in Mad Men look progressive. 14 and 15 year old girls are absolutely within the wheelhouse of men in conservative rural parts of the Middle East and Asia (and were in Europe not that long ago). Much of the world is about 50 to 100 years behind Canada when it comes to attitudes about sex, consent, and women's (or boy's) rights.

Hmmm...this sounds suspiciously like identity politics.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Hmmm...this sounds suspiciously like identity politics.

What?

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by peter12

What?

He said THIS SOUNDS SUSPICIOUSLY LIKE IDENTITY POLITICS

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

He said THIS SOUNDS SUSPICIOUSLY LIKE IDENTITY POLITICS

Pardon me, I said.

[llwhiteoutll]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

People realise our modern Canadian notions of sexual propriety, age appropriateness, consent, etc. are not universal global norms, right? A significant portion of the men in world have sexual mores that would make the chauvinists in Mad Men look progressive. 14 and 15 year old girls are absolutely within the wheelhouse of men in conservative rural parts of the Middle East and Asia (and were in Europe not that long ago). Much of the world is about 50 to 100 years behind Canada when it comes to attitudes about sex, consent, and women's (or boy's) rights.

What the social customs or laws of another nation allow is irrelevant. This is Canada, not a third world backwater, and there are expectations and laws on how we treat children and women. If that is something that is difficult to accept and follow, then Canadians should not suffer because of it.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by troutman

As a father of six (and husband presumably) he must have known his behavior was wrong by any moral or legal standards.

I also don't see any other refugees groping underage girls citing "different cultural norms". If his claim ends up being that he thought it was okay, I'm not buying it.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

What the social customs or laws of another nation allow is irrelevant. This is Canada, not a third world backwater, and there are expectations and laws on how we treat children and women. If that is something that is difficult to accept and follow, then Canadians should not suffer because of it.

I'm not defending the actions under some kind of relativistic reasoning. Just pointing out that our notions of sexual propriety are not universal. Any young Canadian woman travelling in the Middle East would find that out rather quickly.

Originally Posted by tvp2003

I also don't see any other refugees groping underage girls citing "different cultural norms". If his claim ends up being that he thought it was okay, I'm not buying it.

I doubt he thought it was okay. He may very well have thought it was a bit naughty, though, rather than a serious crime. Groping of women on public transport and other public places is quite common in much of the world, and certainly not something the men doing it would expect to face serious criminal penalties for.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Locke

I can sort of see it.

I mean, he isnt a citizen of this country so why is he entitled to our due process?

Er... because we have a constitution.

Legal Rights

7. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.

8. Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure.

9. Everyone has the right not to be arbitrarily detained or imprisoned.

10. Everyone has the right on arrest or detention
(a) to be informed promptly of the reasons therefor;
(b) to retain and instruct counsel without delay and to be informed of that right; and
(c) to have the validity of the detention determined by way of habeas corpus and to be released if the detention is not lawful.


11.Any person charged with an offence has the right
(a) to be informed without unreasonable delay of the specific offence;
(b) to be tried within a reasonable time;
(c) not to be compelled to be a witness in proceedings against that person in respect of the offence;
(d) to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal;
(e) not to be denied reasonable bail without just cause;
(f) except in the case of an offence under military law tried before a military tribunal, to the benefit of trial by jury where the maximum punishment for the offence is imprisonment for five years or a more severe punishment;
(g) not to be found guilty on account of any act or omission unless, at the time of the act or omission, it constituted an offence under Canadian or international law or was criminal according to the general principles of law recognized by the community of nations;
(h) if finally acquitted of the offence, not to be tried for it again and, if finally found guilty and punished for the offence, not to be tried or punished for it again; and
(i) if found guilty of the offence and if the punishment for the offence has been varied between the time of commission and the time of sentencing, to the benefit of the lesser punishment

12. Everyone has the right not to be subjected to any cruel and unusual treatment or punishment.

Not "Canadian citizens" have the rights. Everyone does. If you're here, if you're within our jurisdiction, this is what you get.

[keratosis]

They have the same rights, granted. But they also have to abide by our laws, and I think not abiding by said laws before you are granted citizenship is grounds for deportation.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by keratosis

They have the same rights, granted. But they also have to abide by our laws, and I think not abiding by said laws before you are granted citizenship is grounds for deportation.

But the issues is that they are still allowed "due process" prior to "deportation".

[keratosis]

There's no issue, he will get his due process, with the hopeful outcome of deportation.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by keratosis

There's no issue, he will get his due process, with the hopeful outcome of deportation.

Then I misunderstood your post.

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I'm not defending the actions under some kind of relativistic reasoning. Just pointing out that our notions of sexual propriety are not universal. Any young Canadian woman travelling in the Middle East would find that out rather quickly.



I doubt he thought it was okay. He may very well have thought it was a bit naughty, though, rather than a serious crime. Groping of women on public transport and other public places is quite common in much of the world, and certainly not something the men doing it would expect to face serious criminal penalties for.

Doesn't make it right. My wife is from Pakistan. Her family is Catholic. Whenever they would go to the beach the Muslim men would stand there and stare at the catholic girls and try to grope them if they got a chance. The Muslim women would be at home. They will creep on anyone who is not a Muslim there because they think they are justified in doing it. My wife's aunt was harassed in this was one day on her way home from school. My father in law and his brother beat them within an inch of their life because the police would not do anything. People feel entitled to do whatever they want if the police are corrupt and they can pay them off. If they come here with the same attitude then crap like this happens. It's the same reason creeps from the west (Jarred from Subway) travel to places in Asia to abuse small children. They think they are going to get away with it.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Doesn't make it right.

Where did I give the impression that I think it's right? Your characterization of Pakistan matches my experiences in Turkey. I'm just pointing out that this dude may very well have been doing something that he doesn't really regard as a huge deal. Doesn't make it right - it just explains why he did it and why, presumably, he felt he could get away with it.

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Where did I give the impression that I think it's right? Your characterization of Pakistan matches my experiences in Turkey. I'm just pointing out that this dude may very well have been doing something that he doesn't really regard as a huge deal. Doesn't make it right - it just explains why he did it and why, presumably, he felt he could get away with it.

Sorry I wasn't trying to make it sound like you condone it. I was just reinforcing your point.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Doesn't make it right. My wife is from Pakistan. Her family is Catholic. Whenever they would go to the beach the Muslim men would stand there and stare at the catholic girls and try to grope them if they got a chance. The Muslim women would be at home. They will creep on anyone who is not a Muslim there because they think they are justified in doing it. My wife's aunt was harassed in this was one day on her way home from school. My father in law and his brother beat them within an inch of their life because the police would not do anything. People feel entitled to do whatever they want if the police are corrupt and they can pay them off. If they come here with the same attitude then crap like this happens. It's the same reason creeps from the west (Jarred from Subway) travel to places in Asia to abuse small children. They think they are going to get away with it.

That damn Jared and his kind of backwards thinking that it's okay to molest kids better not immigrate here.

[Language]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

One of the reasons Europe is having issues with integration is because the immigrants and refugees they take in have much lower education levels and much higher religiosity than Muslim immigrants to Canada. Our points system means we tend to get well-off, educated, cosmopolitan Muslim immigrants. That isn't the case in Europe, where many Muslim immigrants are highly religious, highly conservative, and poorly educated. Unsurprisingly, there are often cultural frictions between those immigrants and the native populations in highly liberal countries like Germany, France, and the Netherlands.

In this case, we're dealing with a refugee who hasn't had to meet any of Canada's immigration standards on education and income. He may well come from a region of Syria that is conservative and uneducated, and in many respects like the Canada of 60 or 80 years ago.

Completely agree with your first paragraph. This is what needs to be clearly explained to people who look at Europe, and think that taking in refugees will lead to the same things happening there. Completely different situations and border/immigration controls.

However, your second paragraph is what bothers many people and scares them about letting refugees in as fast as possible. I'm all for taking in immigrants, but we can't let our guard down and start being laissez faire with our points system (which works very well), in the name of trying to let X number of people quickly. We still need proper vetting. Of course, vetting won't necessarily show that someone is a sexual deviant, but the vetting should be thorough enough to gauge what a person's views are on simple moral compass when it comes to respect for woman, etc.

[GGG]

How does such vetting work? I mean outside of criminal record vetting are you proposing going through their Facebook to see what beliefs they have? At any interview you will say what you need to to get in.

[CliffFletcher]

I don't think individual vetting is practical. This is a cultural thing - some countries (or regions in countries) are decades, or even centuries behind the West when it comes to attitudes towards women, sex, etc. In places where you can marry 14-year-olds, and where genders are largely segregated in public, it's not deviant to paw at half-naked teenage girls.

You can look at it this way: Imagine if we didn't have immigration by country, but instead by time. So we had a time machine, and could dial up Canadians from the past to come and live in our Canada today. Would we have more trouble integrating Canadians from 1990, or Canadians from 1890?