CHL minimum wage lawsuit reveals clubs' financials

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

what position exactly do you think you're arguing against?

Your position seems to be that the Winterhawks are profitable, based on the fact that they claimed $5.6 million in deductible expenses on their tax return. You claimed that they are losing money on paper only.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I made no claims. I did intend to imply that it isn't quite so simple as to categorically label Portland as an unprofitable franchise, especially since we can't see the whole return and we only saw one.

[Jay Random]

We saw the bottom line and the top line. Gross revenue was $5.6 million and change. We saw the breakdown of expenses by category. What more do you want?

[flamesfan1297]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

?!? Don't even see how that makes sense... ?!?

They'll get paid their minimum wage wherever they play. What difference is it whether they sell in one city or another... well, i guess different provinces have different minimum wages? OK - you win that one...


The players are provided the opportunity to play in the CHL to further develop their game and hopefully make it into the NHL. The teams are providing things for the players to assist with that, and to make their time in the league easier. It really isn't supposed to be about money at this level. The league has a scholarship program set up (that could be improved) to assist those who don't make it to the big leagues.

Not sure what the expectation is here. The players are being taken care of in exchange for working on improving their level of play in a game they love while they try and get to the NHL. The CHL is not a job - it is an opportunity... and still better than an internship.

Couldn't have said it better. Thanks

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

We saw the bottom line and the top line. Gross revenue was $5.6 million and change. We saw the breakdown of expenses by category. What more do you want?

They pay officers of their the corp 382k and have a 1.7 million dollar deduction called see statement 3. The 382k looks like a payout to the owners. Not sure what the other 1.7 is.

We also don't see any of the revenue structure so does that revenue include everything or is there other companies making money on the side by renting the arena to themselves and keeping the beer and parking money going to he arena company.

The sale prices of the franchises don't fit with the balance sheets we are seeing.

[GGG]

Why does the profitability of the businesses matter in determining if the kids are employees

legally what are they?

- they aren't customers like kids playing sports
- they aren't independent contractors as they aren't free to sign with who they want to
- they aren't volunteers
- so what's left is an employee

The problem is that we have let our sports teams off without competition. And this allows the monopoly to price fix. If you let the kids be independent contractors then some would be paid quite a bit while others would have parents paying for their spot on the team.

If the league as a whole is making a profit then their monopoly is unfairly restricting the earnings of the players.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

The players are provided the opportunity to play in the CHL to further develop their game and hopefully make it into the NHL.

It is an opportunity for sure, just like it's an opportunity for CHL coaches and execs to make it to the NHL. I'm pretty sure they get paid.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

is there a reason that the judge required WHL and OHL teams but not QMJHL teams? That seems odd to me.

The issue is with the CHL and you're leaving out around 1/3 of the teams financials. Especially when you have teams like Québec, Moncton, Saint John, Halifax and Gatineau. (on the other hand the Bathurst's of the league would skew the average the other way).

The QMJHL is not involved in this lawsuit for some reason, even though the lawyers trying to turn a profit include it in their promotional website.

[sureLoss]

I wonder if the QMJHL lawsuit hasn't been filed yet because there is something in Quebec law that would be detrimental to the case.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

I wonder if the QMJHL lawsuit hasn't been filed yet because there is something in Quebec law that would be detrimental to the case.

That was my thinking too... no lawyer is going to leave money on the table by not including the Q unless it hurts their case.

[Aarongavey]

Just get rid of the bantam draft and let the players sign with whatever team they want to sign with. That would be the easiest solution, not sure why the CHL does not propose that.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Just get rid of the bantam draft and let the players sign with whatever team they want to sign with. That would be the easiest solution, not sure why the CHL does not propose that.

Who would sign with Swift Current? It would be a death sentence for a lot of the small-town teams.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

I wonder if the QMJHL lawsuit hasn't been filed yet because there is something in Quebec law that would be detrimental to the case.

I was thinking the same thing. I'd be curious to see how the non-Québec based teams fare. I'd also be curious to see how Val d'Or does, and how they calculate costs (they're owned by an airline, Air Creebec, and fly rather than bus everywhere).

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Who would sign with Swift Current? It would be a death sentence for a lot of the small-town teams.

Why should the law care about that.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

am I correct in reading that as the WinterHawks lost $192k?

I'll also note that they paid $2.1 million in wages so they can afford to pay people, just not to their primary productive asset.

[MBates]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

I wonder if the QMJHL lawsuit hasn't been filed yet because there is something in Quebec law that would be detrimental to the case.

This says it has been filed:

https://www.charneylawyers.com/Charn....31.14_000.pdf

The whl claim can be read here:

https://www.charneylawyers.com/Charn...datedClaim.pdf

I know it's the plaintiffs view but it seems convincing.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

The players are provided the opportunity to play in the CHL to further develop their game and hopefully make it into the NHL. The teams are providing things for the players to assist with that, and to make their time in the league easier. It really isn't supposed to be about money at this level. The league has a scholarship program set up (that could be improved) to assist those who don't make it to the big leagues.

If it's not supposed to be about money at this level then perhaps the league and the teams in it should be run as a non profit organization......

The World Junior Championships made 22 million dollars PROFIT when they were played in Alberta.

That buys a lot of sticks and ice time.

If the owners are in it to make money, the players should share in that profit. You don't think that's fair?

If the CHL didn't exist, the OPPORTUNITY to play hockey would still exist.

Perhaps more players would go to college where they also get free equipment/room and board and a $50,000 education.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by The Familia

I don't see the issue. Kids have to PAY to play hockey when they are younger. If they are good enough and decide to pursue it further, they enter the CHL and come out even (don't have to pay, are not being paid. In fact they come out on top as they receive a stipend and free education). If they are good enough to make the NHL then they will get PAID. Seems like a fair chain of events to me. At the end of the day they are playing a sport. They are not critical to the survival of mankind. If they don't like it, they are free to drop out and join the rest of society either working or going to university. I don't feel CHL players should be paid a penny above free education and basic necessities while on the road (food and housing).

What about underage actors, musicians, and other entertainers?

Should they all be unpaid?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

If it's not supposed to be about money at this level then perhaps the league and the teams in it should be run as a non profit organization......

The World Junior Championships made 22 million dollars PROFIT when they were played in Alberta.

That buys a lot of sticks and ice time.

If the owners are in it to make money, the players should share in that profit. You don't think that's fair?

If the CHL didn't exist, the OPPORTUNITY to play hockey would still exist.

Perhaps more players would go to college where they also get free equipment/room and board and a $50,000 education.

You could not possibly have picked a worse example, Oil Stain. Most of that World Junior profit went to the IIHF - a non-profit organization - and Hockey Canada - also a non-profit organization. That money helps fund many of the programs both run.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by MBates

This says it has been filed:

https://www.charneylawyers.com/Charn....31.14_000.pdf

That is one player suing the QMJHL for $50 million dollars in damages. I am talking about the class action that is being done on behalf of many players.