Disabled man kidnapped and tortured

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You badly missed the context of "stupidity/ranting and raving."

It was a direct response as to whether the Trump/white people comments were worthy of a hate crime charge. They were not dismissing the torture as stupidity. You have to leap really far to make that assumption (or read none of the actual articles and just go based on some angry social media reactions).

You're not taking the quote in context at all. Of course you'd be angry with the way you're interpreting it out of context. Completely understandable reaction.

No. You're seriously downplaying the significance of that. Why did he have to say anything at all?

"Was it a hate crime?"

"We are currently investigating and gathering evidence."
Boom, I just solved the #### he got himself in.

There was 0 reason for multiple officers to call it just stupid. To suggest it was just kids being kids. But they did it. And there's a reason for it, one you don't want to admit.

[PepsiFree]

Or one you're reaching very far to fabricate because you want to push an agenda, but we'll agree to disagree.

The act was called disgusting and horrible, didn't know if it was a hate crime, investigated, charged them with a hate crime.

Classic case of white-on-white racism I guess.

[Pliddy]

I HATE that this story has become about race and rasicm. The fact that the attackers are black and the victim is white is only a side Story. The real story is how we view and protect the most vulnerable members of our society. Those 4 people could have attacked nearly any single individual, and they probably past dozens of people walking alone before they attacked a person with a developmental disability. The fact that we are ignoring this to focus on the more sexy issue of race and Trump says a lot. Why are we ignoring why this person was left alone, why did these 4 people think that treating this vulnerable person like a dog was such a statement worthy of broadcasting on Facebook. I think this horrible crime should be used to start a conversation about the rights of people with disabilities and what place we see them having in our communities, rather than giving the usual talking heads another 6 hours of air time to talk about Trump and a rehashing of race relations that really have not changed in 30 years

[Oling_Roachinen]

What am I fabricating? Did commander say that they were kids who make poor decisions when asked about the racism and Trump stuff?

You could see the uncomfortableness in their body language during the press conference. They clearly did not want to make this into a hate crime. They clearly were trying to downplay it. Duffin could have just shut up and said that it was being investigated.

He didn't. Instead he made a conscious choice to call them kids, to point out how young adults do stupid ####. How often does that happen, how often does the police force refer to the assailants as kids when 18-24 year olds are caught on camera committing a brutal crime? If it's frequent, you should be able to post some examples. I can honestly say I have never seen it until today, but I'd be willing to change my tune with examples.

[Pliddy]

I HATE that this story has become about race and rasicm. The fact that the attackers are black and the victim is white is only a side Story. The real story is how we view and protect the most vulnerable members of our society. Those 4 people could have attacked nearly any single individual, and they probably past dozens of people walking alone before they attacked a person with a developmental disability. The fact that we are ignoring this to focus on the more sexy issue of race and Trump says a lot. Why are we ignoring why this person was left alone, why did these 4 people think that treating this vulnerable person like a dog was such a statement worthy of broadcasting on Facebook. I think this horrible crime should be used to start a conversation about the rights of people with disabilities and what place we see them having in our communities, rather than giving the usual talking heads another 6 hours of air time to talk about Trump and a rehashing of race relations that really have not changed in 30 years

[icecube]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Seriously dude, grow up. Stop trying to make this situation about you and your agenda. It was disgusting action by reprehensible individuals and the piece of #### commander, the same commander of a city where there are 2 killings a day, was pulling the boys will be boys defense for this piece of ####s. It's disgusting, anyone of any type of any bit of humanity should be disgusted by the actions of those involved and stop trying to push their agenda.

You should really, really, really be ashamed of yourself.

What agenda? I'm curious what you think my agenda is?

What's your agenda BTW? Is it to make everyone realize that everyone can be racist , not just white people?

The movie Crash already tried to do that.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Pliddy

I think this horrible crime should be used to start a conversation about the rights of people with disabilities and what place we see them having in our communities, rather than giving the usual talking heads another 6 hours of air time to talk about Trump and a rehashing of race relations that really have not changed in 30 years

While I think the abuse of this disabled man is awful (a close relative of mine is mentally disabled), I'm not sure what rights have to do with it. Nobody who has any sense of empathy or social conscience would think luring a disabled man, kidnapping, and torturing him is okay. But some people have no empathy or social conscience. Having a conversation about the rights of the disabled won't stop others sociopaths from doing this sort of thing in the future.

[Pliddy]

And ranting about Trump and race won't stop sociopaths either. I am more interested in the circumstances that led to this young man who obviouslyndsey needed some level of support being left alone with these people and why they targeted him specifically. I might be naive, but I assume he was not the only white person this group knew, but for some reason they felt that what ever statement they wanted to make by treating him that way had to be done in a public manner.

[Snuffleupagus]

We can talk about racial problems till we're blue in the face but I'm more concerned about what kind of overall social problems could possibly make these young people do this kind of evil to an animal let alone a human being. the giggling and laughing is very concerning.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

What am I fabricating? Did commander say that they were kids who make poor decisions when asked about the racism and Trump stuff?

You could see the uncomfortableness in their body language during the press conference. They clearly did not want to make this into a hate crime. They clearly were trying to downplay it. Duffin could have just shut up and said that it was being investigated.

He didn't. Instead he made a conscious choice to call them kids, to point out how young adults do stupid ####. How often does that happen, how often does the police force refer to the assailants as kids when 18-24 year olds are caught on camera committing a brutal crime? If it's frequent, you should be able to post some examples. I can honestly say I have never seen it until today, but I'd be willing to change my tune with examples.

It happens fairly often, ironically in favour of white offenders quite often. There's an op ed piece from last year that talks about the different way we treat young white criminals vs young criminals of colour.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtm...-is-terrorism/
The Aurora shooter, as well as Brock turner were good examples.

Even then I think you're mischaracterising the use of kids as some consciousness and purposeful use of language, when he was sure to correct himself and call them adults.

The problem is when characterising a hate crime is you have to know the motivation, and "### white people," while a good clue, doesn't give you enough evidence. There's a good article about it:
http://http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/05...fbi/index.html

As I said, we'll agree to disagree because I dont know how you're seeing it from the angle you are, when considering the whole story (police said kids, corrected themselves, said the act was horrible, charged them with 4 different crimes... but were somehow racist against whites and defending the criminals... don't get it at all).

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Okay, let's just back up a minute. To state that Omar Mateen's motive wasn't jihadism based on lack of specific direction by and contact with ISIS leaders is to completely misunderstand how ISIS works.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Okay, let's just back up a minute. To state that Omar Mateen's motive wasn't jihadism based on lack of specific direction by and contact with ISIS leaders is to completely misunderstand how ISIS works.

Good thing nobody said that. That's a whole conversation that could be had though, if you're interested (lots of points about questionable religious affiliations, different motivations, etc) but probably good for PM, being as off topic as it would take the thread.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Ok, I must have misunderstood you then. Mateen said his motivation was jihadi in nature and in support of ISIS's goals, and you posted that he was a good example of why you shouldn't take a criminal's words as good evidence of his motives when committing a crime. So that was why I thought you were suggesting his motive wasn't jihadism. You're right though, it would be a total de-rail to get into it.

[zamler]

All 4 have been charged with hate crimes, kidnapping, aggravated battery, aggravated unlawful restraint. Three have been charged with burglary. One of them knew the guy he was a classmate

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It happens fairly often, ironically in favour of white offenders quite often. There's an op ed piece from last year that talks about the different way we treat young white criminals vs young criminals of colour.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtm...-is-terrorism/
The Aurora shooter, as well as Brock turner were good examples.

No, no, no PepsiFree. I asked you for current police force, not media. Not sure if you're being purposely obtuse or what mental gymnastics you're doing but again, I asked about the police force coming up and defending the assailants an hour after the story breaks. Media is trash, we can agree. But don't act like it's common for the police force to go to the podium and downplay the serious of the situation as fairly often and trying to label something as kids being kids or stupidity. Especially when we're talking about 18-24 year olds. If anything, they love to build up the crime to make them look like they did a badass job.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The problem is when characterising a hate crime is you have to know the motivation, and "### white people," while a good clue, doesn't give you enough evidence. There's a good article about it:
http://http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/05...fbi/index.html

I don't disagree. Again. But you're seriously downplaying what the cops said. They didn't say, we need to investigate more thoroughly. They made up their own narrative. They clearly downplayed it. They said kids make stupid decision. They said it looks like stupidity. All they had to do was say "We are continuing to investigate that aspect of the crime." So why did they consciously call it stupidity, why did they make a point to mention it was kids and young adults, especially when it involves a 24 year old? They wanted to form their own narrative of the crime, give up another explanation for it that didn't involve race relations. And that's simply not what the police should be doing.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

As I said, we'll agree to disagree because I dont know how you're seeing it from the angle you are, when considering the whole story (police said kids, corrected themselves, said the act was horrible, charged them with 4 different crimes... but were somehow racist against whites and defending the criminals... don't get it at all).

And yet, you can't seem to see it from the other angle. Four kids assault a white person for apparently no reason. Torture him for a day. Cut into his scalp. Burn him. Make him drink from the toilet. While yelling "#### white people." From the perspective of a lot of people that's a clear case hate-crime.

Now, hate crimes are tricky. The officers could have said "We need to gather more evidence and determine if it was based on the colour of his skin or disability before calling it a hate crime." And again, no one is up in arms.

There was no need for the police to stand up there and call that portion of the crime "stupidity" or "kids making stupid mistakes." They certainly didn't need to say" at this point we have anything concrete to really point us in that direction" when you have a video of these guys yelling #### white people. And, evidently, are charging them with a hate crime a couple hours later...what changed to the police?

All they had to do was say it was continued to be investigated and the (I'll call it for lack of better term) "moderate alt-right" has nothing to cry about. Sure, the far ones, will still try to blame BLM and minorities in general, but to these moderates, they see a video of deranged individuals committing heinous crime while yelling "#### white people" and the police force making excuses for it. The same divisive bull#### that led to a Trump presidency reared it's ugly head is once again "confirmed" by that group.

If you aren't going to offer an explanation as to why the police chose the words they did, then I think you need to concede it was a stupid choice by the cops. All you need to do is see how the right-wing media is eating up.

[RougeUnderoos]

Gotta admit I'm kind of drunk and tired and disappointed about the hockey game tonight, but a lot of posts in this thread seem to suggest that black people in the States get a free ride from the media and cops and the justice system in general.

I'm almost positive I've read in the last few pages that if a black person had been brutalized by some white people, the country would be in flames. That such injustice would not be tolerated.

I really should go to bed.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Gotta admit I'm kind of drunk and tired and disappointed about the hockey game tonight, but a lot of posts in this thread seem to suggest that black people in the States get a free ride from the media and cops and the justice system in general.

Yeah....no one has remotely said anything like that in this thread.


People, a lot of people, are just unhappy with the decision by the police force to downplay the racist aspect of this crime. Ironically, probably trying to quell the hate that a story like this could bring out. Now it's all over the right-wing media, and some how in a story where 4 adults tortured and broadcast the torture of a disabled individual, has become a focal point of the story.

You may have missed it, but over the last couple years the race relations has really surfaced and tensions and divisiveness is pretty high in the States (read: Trumpy presidency). You also may have missed the #### hole that Chicago has become. The cops probably had good intentions in just trying to say this was idiot kids doing idiot things instead of trying to avoid the narrative of sadistic "black on white hate-crime" so as not to lead to more violence and hate, more divisiveness. But in doing so, in trying to hide or downplay that aspect of the crime, they have managed to further ingrain the attitudes and beliefs that the alt-right currently share. It's simply not the position of the police to try and build their own narrative, even if their intentions may have been good.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

How often does that happen, how often does the police force refer to the assailants as kids when 18-24 year olds are caught on camera committing a brutal crime? If it's frequent, you should be able to post some examples. I can honestly say I have never seen it until today, but I'd be willing to change my tune with examples.

White Girl Bleed a Lot?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Gotta admit I'm kind of drunk and tired and disappointed about the hockey game tonight, but a lot of posts in this thread seem to suggest that black people in the States get a free ride from the media and cops and the justice system in general.

I'm almost positive I've read in the last few pages that if a black person had been brutalized by some white people, the country would be in flames. That such injustice would not be tolerated.

If the races were reversed in this case - four white adults kidnapped a disabled black man and tortured him on camera while shouting "F*** n****rs! F*** Obama!" the story would be leading every newscast for days, news anchors would be flying to Chicago, there would be dozens of editorials written tying this into a narrative of white oppression. It goes without saying Trump would be blamed for fostering a climate where this was inevitable. Guest columnists at the Globe and Mail would write deeply personal accounts of how this made them feel. The CBC's Maria Tremonti would talk to sociologists and community activists about what this means for America. The Atlantic would publish a beautifully-written 4000 word story on the crime and its place in American history. It would be a cause celebre for months.

Because the media has bought into the culture wars. Abandoned any pretence of being detached observers of society and leaped head-first into the toxic pool of Us vs Them rhetoric. Every story that involves race of gender is now fit into an ideological narrative. The problem with narratives is they're emotionally satisfying, but simplistic. They omit and emphasise and employ the techniques of fiction to provide an emotional catharsis. The news media has always done this. But never to this extent, and never in so unashamedly partisan a manner.

The mainstream media is dying. As I pointed out in another thread, the Herald building used to hold 600 employees. Now, the combined Herald and Sun staff number 100 and they rattle around an almost building. They'll probably all be out of a job within a year or two.

Most of that is down to changing technology and the collapse of their business model. But they also suffer from self-inflicted wounds. When confronted with the challenge of online blogs and amateur quasi-news sites, they could have assessed their long-term prospects and decided to emphasise what they brought to the table that blogs can't: thorough research; balance and fairness; a detached and more rational perspective. Instead, they tried to beat bloggers and alternative media at their own game by emphasising opinion and emotion. By engaging in advocacy and partisanship instead of objectivity and empiricism.

And now it turns out they don't offer anything different from partisan bloggers. They've either bought into identity politics or they appeal to frightened bigots. They have no credibility as balanced centrists, or genuine liberals who offer a forum of diverse perspectives and opinions.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Yeah....no one has remotely said anything like that in this thread.

In the first 10 posts alone, at least two people said "if it was white people who did it..." and one person even suggested that white people are marginalized by labels like "privilege".

It's like an alternate reality.

White people run everything in America. We all know that. To use this terrible one-off crime to start whinging about how poorly white people are treated in America is silly.