Banning/Allowing Religious Garbs

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by peter12

Yeah, I don't want to bring this off-track any further, but that particular quote is considered to be a later insertion. When you look at St. Paul's letters, there is significant evidence that a) the early church had significant female leadership, b) that equality between the sexes was paramount to Christian virtue, and, c) that Paul actively encouraged this process.

Not to say that it wasn't controversial, and hasn't retained that in this modern age. All religions tend to crystallize certain passages or interpretations based on current cultural trends. As a result, Christianity has inspired, produced, or been used to form the basis of a wide plurality of views on marriage, equality, and sexuality.

Just amazing that you always have a good answer/excuse for the bad quotes in the bible.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by peter12

Yeah, I don't want to bring this off-track any further, but that particular quote is considered to be a later insertion.

So what? It's still in the Bible, and millions of Christians around the world draw influence from it. Plus, it's not like that single passage from Ephesians is the only part of the NT with a similar message:

Originally Posted by 1 Peter 3:1-6

Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

So what? It's still in the Bible, and millions of Christians around the world draw influence from it. Plus, it's not like that single passage from Ephesians is the only part of the NT with a similar message:

So I can see where you want this to go, but that wasn't my point in posting the quote.

Religious texts are receptacles for probably the entire spectrum of human longing, virtue, action, thought ... Everything. They are so powerful because for whatever reason they really do sum up what is to be a human bracketed by the eternities of birth and death.

So they interact with culture in a really peculiar way as they both shape and are shaped by it. So yes, the Judeo-Christian scriptures are filled with lots of things that we modern people find repugnant. In a society that is increasingly less Christian, there is a lot less context around the particular passages, and as a result, less reflection. They have effectively become ideologized within the modern polarization between religious conservatism and liberal secularism. So I completely agree that since they are in there, and lots of people believe them, it is pretty silly to argue semantics.

Nevertheless, the verse that I posted from Galatians is very striking, and it certainly fulfills an ethic that we moderns would recognize as cosmopolitan compassion.

The problem, related back to the burkini ban, is about how a garment, which is anti-modern in both its ethic and aesthetic, can become so symbolic of an entire faith and culture.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by peter12

New Testament. Christian Scriptures. Second half.

Never mind.

I don't disagree and Acts basically dismisses the entire old testement but when you have a group of Christians using the bible to preach hate you can't really argue that the bible is somehow a book of tolerance. It all depends on the believer.

[corporatejay]

Guys. Do we really need to get into a Koran v. Bible debate to determine whether the traditional "Islamic states" have more deep rooted misogyny than the west?

Call a spade a spade.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Guys. Do we really need to get into a Koran v. Bible debate to determine whether the traditional "Islamic states" have more deep rooted misogyny than the west?

Call a spade a spade.

Pretty sure no one is debating that. Peter12 started it off with cherry picking a quote from the bible to show how much better his religion and bible is when it in fact has Misogynstic quotes as well. Pretty sure no one said that the west is more Misogynstic than the "Islamic States".

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

Have you read Leviticus?

In any of these surveys they should also survey Christians by denomination and location, Jews, Hindus, and Athiests to see a baseline. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Christian wives should obey their husbands in the same regions to be similar to the Muslim levels

According to this poll, 45 per cent of American Christians believe a wife should always obey her husband. So about the same percentage as Bosnian Muslims, but about half that of Egyptians, Indonesians, and Pakistanis.

[Bunk]

I'm in the camp that thinks it's ridiculous that religious doctrine should lead to women wearing or being made to wear such garments, but also finds it ridiculous and dangerous for the state to be enforcing these kinds of bans.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by polak

The French are in the wrong but they have been pushed to the absolute limit if you ask me. Easy to sit here on a pedestal and judge them when your country hasn't had 4 deadly attacks in the last 12 months.... What is it, 200+ dead?

This law was signed in 2004, so it has nothing to do with recent terrorist attacks.

Originally Posted by Igottago

How can you advocate freedom and not let people wear what they want? The French are way off base on this one. Reeks of "secularism" turning into its own form of extremism. I wonder if they would take action against a nun at the beach. Somehow I doubt it.

It's not "secularism" in any shape or form, it's oppression targeted specifically against Muslims, and while it's technically supposed to apply to everyone, it has primarily been used to harass Muslim women.

Because you can't have your religious oppression without a good dose of misogynism it seems.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by polak

People are freaked out and angry. This is what's going to happen. Tensions are rising.

Citizens are allowed to be scared and freaked out and angry. You would hope, however, that the leadership of a major European country would be less swayed by emotion and rather would approach the situation with diplomacy and logic.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I'd imagine that plenty of various sects of Christianity in America would be pretty high on this list also. Growing up a Jehovah's Witness, which at the very least does attempt to stick pretty close to the Bible--the man as head of the family and thus the woman being in subjection to him is a pretty strong message that is taught from a very, very young age.

Christian men may not expect their wives to wear a burka, but I can't count the times I've had women come into the salon and want to dramatically change their hair but "my husband would never let me!" Women who have to check with their husbands before they spend any money, etc, etc.

It's not as visible, but that kind of stuff absolutely exists in Christianity also.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by peter12

Anyway, there is a fairly regular occurrence - particularly on busy days - of Muslim men coming down to the beach, staying clothed, and uncomfortably gawking at topless or naked women. They are brazen, sometimes sitting or standing less than 2 or 3 meters from their targets. They freely take pictures, and when challenged become very aggressive, and one two occasions, there have been fisticuffs - once between a group of very gay, muscular men and a very uncomfortable group of Muslim men.

It's really hard to say there is not a misogyny problem in Islam, generally. It's also entirely wrong to solve this problem by taking it out on Muslim women.

EDIT: Total ramble.

Haha can't believe I missed this gem from you. You think creepy men frequenting nude beaches is just a Muslim men thing? No Christian man has been caught being a voyeur or doing other creepy things? Or is that not a Christian man doing those things and simply a man?

Seriously, some of the stuff you say makes you sound like a genius and then you say something like this. Christian men, like all those priests charged with being pedophiles does not mean there's a problem with pedophilia in Christianity.

There is a problem with misogyny in some Muslim sects and countries but it has nothing to do with you seeing Muslim men being creeps at the beach.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

Citizens are allowed to be scared and freaked out and angry. You would hope, however, that the leadership of a major European country would be less swayed by emotion and rather would approach the situation with diplomacy and logic.





I'd imagine that plenty of various sects of Christianity in America would be pretty high on this list also. Growing up a Jehovah's Witness, which at the very least does attempt to stick pretty close to the Bible--the man as head of the family and thus the woman being in subjection to him is a pretty strong message that is taught from a very, very young age.

Christian men may not expect their wives to wear a burka, but I can't count the times I've had women come into the salon and want to dramatically change their hair but "my husband would never let me!" Women who have to check with their husbands before they spend any money, etc, etc.

It's not as visible, but that kind of stuff absolutely exists in Christianity also.

I check with my wife when I spend money or decide to change something up. Doesn't mean I'm part of some fundamentalist Christian sect. I've said things like "my wife would kill me" in the store plenty of times when I was shopping and we all have a sensible chuckle.

I view her as a life partner and not as a subordinate, and the decisions I make affect her (and vice-versa) so we consult each other. If anything, I'm the damn subordinate lol.

EDIT: Forgot to add that we are conservative Christians.

[bigtmac19]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I check with my wife when I spend money or decide to change something up. Doesn't mean I'm part of some fundamentalist Christian sect. I've said things like "my wife would kill me" in the store plenty of times when I was shopping and we all have a sensible chuckle.

I view her as a life partner and not as a subordinate, and the decisions I make affect her (and vice-versa) so we consult each other. If anything, I'm the damn subordinate lol.

EDIT: Forgot to add that we are conservative Christians.

nvm - I couldn't word my question they way I wanted it to sound. It was with respect to the issue of a change in hairstyle and deferring to your partner's preferences.

[CroFlames]

That's true. She cuts her hair and changes styles without consulting me. Which is more than fine.

I wonder why a male would even want to be consulted about his wife's hair?! If my wife asked me what kind of hair cut she should get, I would look like a deer in headlights.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

Citizens are allowed to be scared and freaked out and angry. You would hope, however, that the leadership of a major European country would be less swayed by emotion and rather would approach the situation with diplomacy and logic.





I'd imagine that plenty of various sects of Christianity in America would be pretty high on this list also. Growing up a Jehovah's Witness, which at the very least does attempt to stick pretty close to the Bible--the man as head of the family and thus the woman being in subjection to him is a pretty strong message that is taught from a very, very young age.

Christian men may not expect their wives to wear a burka, but I can't count the times I've had women come into the salon and want to dramatically change their hair but "my husband would never let me!" Women who have to check with their husbands before they spend any money, etc, etc.

It's not as visible, but that kind of stuff absolutely exists in Christianity also.

This is the kind of post I'm talking about. Let's stop pretending that Christians in the west are on some equivalency with islamic states. They are not. Forcing women to wear a Burka or an Abaya is awful and should be condemned as such. Those cultures treat women like garbage and should be called out as such.


My wife and I consult each other on everything. Hairstyles, money etc.. Why would she get a haircut I wouldn't like. I wouldn't be upset if she did but I wouldn't be happy, just like I wouldn't get a hairstyle she wouldn't like, what's the point.

[PepsiFree]

As interesting as the conversation is, it's kind of fruitless.

Religion is irrelevant in terms of misogyny. It occurs in every religion and outside of religion as well. Muslim, Christian, whatever... Gandhi was a misogynist. Misogyny today is a mix of old world thinking and the lowest common denominator. You can argue all you want about who is more misogynistic but it's completely irrelevant.

In terms of this law, while a blanket law against all religious garb would be one thing, this isn't that. Banning if the burkini is stupid and hateful. It is not the place of the government to decide what it's citizens can wear, outside of the level of dress (which even I disagree with).

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I wonder why a male would even want to be consulted about his wife's hair?!

Hah, I'm not married but I'd assume it goes the other way entirely.

Experiment for the married guys: go tell your wife you think you should shave your head and grow a handlebar moustache with mutton chops because of what a badass you'll look like. Report back with results!

[GGG]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

This is the kind of post I'm talking about. Let's stop pretending that Christians in the west are on some equivalency with islamic states. They are not. Forcing women to wear a Burka or an Abaya is awful and should be condemned as such. Those cultures treat women like garbage and should be called out as such.


My wife and I consult each other on everything. Hairstyles, money etc.. Why would she get a haircut I wouldn't like. I wouldn't be upset if she did but I wouldn't be happy, just like I wouldn't get a hairstyle she wouldn't like, what's the point.

Did you read the poll that Cliff posted. 45% of Christians surveryed agreed that Women should Obey their husbands.

I think the difference is that the US has maintained a secular government for the most part. So it would be fair to compare Muslims in secular countries to Christians in secular countries and compare the level of misogyny.

To those Muslims who live under authoritarian regimes its absolutely a false equivalency. But to compare the Southern US evangelicals, some Mennonite and hudderite communities, JW and other Christian sects to Muslim sects living under secular governments will probably make Christianity look quite poor or certainly not enlightened as some people suggest.

[peter12]

Been there, done that after a 6 week consultation in Northern Canada. There are certain things a wife can hold back that are non-negotiable. Facial hair gone in about 10 minutes after I stepped through our door.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

That's true. She cuts her hair and changes styles without consulting me. Which is more than fine.

I wonder why a male would even want to be consulted about his wife's hair?! If my wife asked me what kind of hair cut she should get, I would look like a deer in headlights.

We consult each other on everything. Why not? I'm not a drooling fool, I can tell her when clothes don't fit well. She can do the same for me.

It's more complementary than anything.