theScore's rankings of all 31 NHL franchises: Leafs 1st, Flames 22nd

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by PegCityFlamesFan

Lemieux, Armia and the 1st round pick didn't hurt either.

These pieces haven't helped much. The Jets are terrible.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

These pieces haven't helped much. The Jets are terrible.

The only thing terrible is your ongoing contributions to any Jets related topic here.

Originally Posted by AC

Yep, Myers is ok but not what he is "supposed" to be at this point in his career. Stafford is a useable veteran.

But it's mainly a win for WPG thanks to getting rid of Kane in general.

Though Bogosian has been decent for Buffalo from what I understand too.

Whatever he was supposed to be, he was better than Bogosian last year in fancy stats, and, regular stats. Same thing for Stafford over Kane, and less contract.

The players the Jets got outperformed Kane and Bogosian, and, they got 3 other pieces on top of it. And they got rid of a total d bag. So it's not mainly a win for getting rid of Kane. It's a massive win because they did that and got better players, and, prospects. It was an utter fleecing.

And I can't stand Cheveldayoff.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

The only thing terrible is your ongoing contributions to any Jets related topic here.

Also, the Jets. They're terrible.

[ricardodw]

Agreed the owner is not a significant measure. You have 2 or 3 owners who will take on a Nathan Horton contract to improve the team... then you have 20+ owners who will spend to the cap and then a few who have an internal cap.

However it is interesting to see the view from the outside on the Flames new coach. Is he up to the job of getting the most out of the Flames best very well paid players? Have to worry about who controls the locker room when the going gets tough. It will be very easy to scape-goat GG if any of the core 9 (Gio, Brodie, Hamilton, Gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett, Brouwer, Frolik, Backlund) under-perform. Any of these guys would be extremely difficult to bench or reduce ice-time for a coach that does not have strong credentials.

Also the outside world sees the Flames prospects as middle of the pack... There appears to be more help on the way for the Flames immediate make the playoff rivals (Yotes, Jets, Oilers) ... Is this a valid analysis?

If this is somewhat accurate the it supports my position that the this year is the end of the rebuild and the Flames are near to as good as they are going to get over the next couple of years.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

The only thing terrible is your ongoing contributions to any Jets related topic here.



Whatever he was supposed to be, he was better than Bogosian last year in fancy stats, and, regular stats. Same thing for Stafford over Kane, and less contract.

The players the Jets got outperformed Kane and Bogosian, and, they got 3 other pieces on top of it. And they got rid of a total d bag. So it's not mainly a win for getting rid of Kane. It's a massive win because they did that and got better players, and, prospects. It was an utter fleecing.

And I can't stand Cheveldayoff.

Both teams lose this deal. The Sabers and Jets were both trading what were perceived to be impact high value pieces, and due to the underwhelming performances of all those involved - no one really got impact pieces back.
Bogoisan and Myers are basically a wash.
And everything else is just a bunch of stuff moving in either direction.

It is very similar to the Flames and the Phaneuf deal. It was a bad trade because of the return they likely could have got elsewhere, not because Phaneuf went on to be a great player.

The fact is that the stuff the Jets got back - haven't really turned into much.

So not a fleecing - just a team that really hasn't worked out for either team as they would have hoped.

[CliffFletcher]

Does anyone think the Jets would be better off today if they kept Kane? Or that Kane will net the Sabres anything close to what the Jets got for him?

You have to give the Jets credit for selling high. They removed a cancer from their room, got some decent picks and prospects, and moved on. The Sabres are going to be the big losers in all this.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Agreed the owner is not a significant measure. You have 2 or 3 owners who will take on a Nathan Horton contract to improve the team... then you have 20+ owners who will spend to the cap and then a few who have an internal cap.

However it is interesting to see the view from the outside on the Flames new coach. Is he up to the job of getting the most out of the Flames best very well paid players? Have to worry about who controls the locker room when the going gets tough. It will be very easy to scape-goat GG if any of the core 9 (Gio, Brodie, Hamilton, Gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett, Brouwer, Frolik, Backlund) under-perform. Any of these guys would be extremely difficult to bench or reduce ice-time for a coach that does not have strong credentials.

Also the outside world sees the Flames prospects as middle of the pack... There appears to be more help on the way for the Flames immediate make the playoff rivals (Yotes, Jets, Oilers) ... Is this a valid analysis?

If this is somewhat accurate the it supports my position that the this year is the end of the rebuild and the Flames are near to as good as they are going to get over the next couple of years.

No. theScore's "analysis" published in the piece linked by the OP is not even remotely valid, and should be summarily dismissed. It is difficult to even get a good sense as to what the ranking is intended to mean.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Does anyone think the Jets would be better off today if they kept Kane? Or that Kane will net the Sabres anything close to what the Jets got for him?...

Could you not also replace "Kane" with "Myers," and "the Jets" with "the Sabres" in the same questions and arrive at the same answers?

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Okay I'm all for trashing Winnipeg, but that deal was better for Winnipeg then you guys are giving credit for.

I mean come on... Kane was Injured at the time of the trade! And it's not like his behavioral issues weren't already well documented before the trade. Yet Winnipeg still got some usable pieces back.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Both teams lose this deal. The Sabers and Jets were both trading what were perceived to be impact high value pieces, and due to the underwhelming performances of all those involved - no one really got impact pieces back.
Bogoisan and Myers are basically a wash.
And everything else is just a bunch of stuff moving in either direction.

It is very similar to the Flames and the Phaneuf deal. It was a bad trade because of the return they likely could have got elsewhere, not because Phaneuf went on to be a great player.

The fact is that the stuff the Jets got back - haven't really turned into much.

So not a fleecing - just a team that really hasn't worked out for either team as they would have hoped.

????

Myers is a +15 playing in 99 games on a team that has been pretty much lock step with the Flames. He plays against the Ovechkin's in the league.
He plays about a minute a game less than Giorando.... who playing against the same calibre opposition on the same sort of +/- team.

Myers is not overly physical (only .7 hits/game) but does not have to be on the Jets... Byfuglien, Trouba, Stuart, Chairot all having more hits/gm than Engelland.

His 26 pts looks paltry compared to the 40+ points put up by the Flames top-3 last year but will seem a lot better when the Flames defense is asked to actually play defense this year.

I can not see any relationship to the Phanuef deal.. where Flames dumped salary because they spent too much getting Bouwmesster and were playing several AHL calibre players at forward. Phanuef was never close to being in the Kane category of messed up.

Had the Flames been able to trade Phanuef for a Meyers level of player we would not be coming out of a stretch of 7 years with 1 playoff appearance.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

The fact is that the stuff the Jets got back - haven't really turned into much.

So not a fleecing - just a team that really hasn't worked out for either team as they would have hoped.

Hard to say this yet, when two of the pieces that Winnipeg received were Joel Armia - who has solid potential to be a good middle six player, if not a star, at the NHL level - and a late first, which was used on Jack Roslovic. Hardly a blue-chipper, but obviously too early to say anything at all about his future.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Does anyone think the Jets would be better off today if they kept Kane? Or that Kane will net the Sabres anything close to what the Jets got for him?

You have to give the Jets credit for selling high. They removed a cancer from their room, got some decent picks and prospects, and moved on. The Sabres are going to be the big losers in all this.

Yeah I feel the Jets easily win the trade. Simply removing Kane was addition by subtraction. Most teams would take Myers on their team, Stafford made Frolik redundant so they didn't have to pay him $4 million in free agency, and a 1st round pick on it's own requires a high payment.

[Textcritic]

^
Sure, the Jets did well to move Kane for useful pieces, but I would object to the claim that they "destroyed the Sabres" in that trade.

...and in the end, the Jets are still terrible.

[OmegaV4]

Mmmm....delcious Bias.

GG TheScore

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Okay I'm all for trashing Winnipeg, but that deal was better for Winnipeg then you guys are giving credit for.

I mean come on... Kane was Injured at the time of the trade! And it's not like his behavioral issues weren't already well documented before the trade. Yet Winnipeg still got some usable pieces back.

Kane being injured at the time of the trade was a bonus for Buffalo as they were purposefully trying to lose games like the loser organization that they are.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Kane being injured at the time of the trade was a bonus for Buffalo as they were purposefully trying to lose games like the loser organization that they are.

Yes you're correct. It doesn't change the fact he was an injured player. You never know how players respond when coming back from an injury so it's hard to determine their value. Obviously Kane didn't respond too well once healthy.

I just think it's impressive that they sold high on an injured player. I don't think that happens very often.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Hard to say this yet, when two of the pieces that Winnipeg received were Joel Armia - who has solid potential to be a good middle six player, if not a star, at the NHL level - and a late first, which was used on Jack Roslovic. Hardly a blue-chipper, but obviously too early to say anything at all about his future.

What evidence is there that Joel Armia has potential to be a good middle six player - given his age, development and production at the NHL level?

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Yes you're correct. It doesn't change the fact he was an injured player. You never know how players respond when coming back from an injury so it's hard to determine their value. Obviously Kane didn't respond too well once healthy.

I just think it's impressive that they sold high on an injured player. I don't think that happens very often.

Doesn't happen often, that is for sure. Worked for Buffalo, given that they were happy to get worse that year in search of the McDream.

Still, it seemed like a good deal for Winnipeg then and it still does now. To say that they did better in the deal and still suck, well, those ideas aren't mutually exclusive.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

What evidence is there that Joel Armia has potential to be a good middle six player - given his age, development and production at the NHL level?

In fact he threw in a 'if not a star'

Armia is one month younger than Granlund and was taken 29 picks earlier in the 2011 draft.

However, since then, Granlund has put up far better numbers in the AHL every single year, as well as better numbers and more games in the NHL.

[Hackey]

Even if you label the Kane trade a fleece job (which I wouldnt) Cheveldayoff still hasn't really done enough for me to put him anywhere close to the 8th best GM in the league.