Fentanyl crisis in Calgary: Vice documentary

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by TSXCman

I lost my little cousin in January to this crap. Laced party drugs that he tried shut his organs down.

That's horrible and my deepest condolences. As someone who has dabbled in the past with recreational pills, this fentanyl stuff really is scary. Back when I was going to raves and popping pills, the main worry was that you might get some pills that were a little bit sketchy. But for the most part, it was relatively safe as long as you didn't take too much, kept hydrated and you looked after yourself.

What's scary now is that now people who do pills like E or powdered M have to worry about something being laced with fentanyl. Before the main worry was about having a pill that might be laced with a bit of acid, 2-CI or even MDA/PMMA. You might have a bad trip. But now you can literally die from a single pill that is laced.

I have a friend I went to post secondary with that I knew quite well. A year ago he did some pills that he thought was ecstasy. He ended up ODing and the doctor's said he ingested way too much fentanyl. I went to visit him in the hospital and he was a vegetable. Couldn't talk. Couldn't walk. Absolutely horrifying to see this guy who was full of life be relegated to this. My other friend went to visit him a couple months ago and he said things still hadn't changed much. He had to learn how to walk all over again and he might not ever have the same quality of life that he had before. So sad. All for a single night of partying.

Unfortunately with the mindset of an addict, things like cleanliness of the drug and safety come a distant second to the instant gratification a high brings. If there is one thing I beat into the heads of my friends or my younger family members, is it's not worth the risk. It's not like 10-15 years ago here where E was pretty safe for the most part and you could buy a pill from the dealer on the dancefloor and take a half to see if it was decent stuff before deciding to take the rest. Now that half pill can kill you.

I was a bit of a pill popper back in my party days and I don't even want to think of the risks I would have taken if this stuff was as mainstream back in the early 2000s like it is now. Very high likely hood that myself and many people I know might have mistakenly taken fentanyl. Education really is the key to getting people not to do it. But at the same time, I haven't seen a street drug get exposure about it's dangers like this in my entire life like fentanyl has. Literally everybody I know that knows what fentanyl is knows how dangerous it is. Sadly, it's going to take more then education to beat this drug.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Canehdianman

Your opinion is wrong and you should feel bad.

It is useless! You think the people taking opiates dont know what they're doing!? What do you think you're going to teach them?

This is extremely naive and I'd love to hear any education "plan" that will stop people from doing drugs.

The only solution for people dying from dirty drugs is legalization. So you either continue to let otherwise normal people with a debilitating problem interact with organized crime and continue to let them play Russian Roulette every time the get their fix or you decide that their lives arent worth the increased addiction rates that will probably result from legalizing crazy hard drugs. I personally don't know which is the right answer and I can't even put myself in the mindset of someone who would try a drug like Heroin so I don't want to judge.

But education is a laughable idea. Safe injection sites and home testing kits are the direction we should be going. Not more PSA's and DARE posters.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by calculoso

How will legalization prevent this fake stuff from still being sold?

Provided the legalized product is cost effective and available there is no reason for the illegal stuff to exist.

It's kinda like needle exchanges. When given easy access to clean needles addicts will choose clean needles over dirty ones

[Coach]

Originally Posted by polak

It is useless! You think the people taking opiates dont know what they're doing!? What do you think you're going to teach them?

This is extremely naive and I'd love to hear any education "plan" that will stop people from doing drugs.

The only solution for people dying from dirty drugs is legalization. So you either continue to let otherwise normal people with a debilitating problem interact with organized crime and continue to let them play Russian Roulette every time the get their fix or you decide that their lives arent worth the increased addiction rates that will probably result from legalizing crazy hard drugs. I personally don't know which is the right answer and I can't even put myself in the mindset of someone who would try a drug like Heroin so I don't want to judge.

But education is a laughable idea. Safe injection sites and home testing kits are the direction we should be going. Not more PSA's and DARE posters.

The point is to educate young people properly (IE, not just saying, this is bad don't do it), before they ever do. Education is preventative, treatment is reactive. Legalization is to maintain control, but it only goes so far. There will always be black market drugs that are cheaper and more dangerous than anything available in a safe manner (Ie, when people can't get their high, they look for ANYTHING that will alter their state of mind). I would agree that, by the time it comes to that, the people are aware of their own situation. The point is to try to prevent it from getting to that point.

Education is never useless.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by MattyC

It's not useless. You can't legalize these things without also instituting proper education about their effects, and treatment for those who get in trouble.

Legalization of pot, MDMA etc.. would help keep those things things from being laced with this crap, but the crap will still be around.

Originally Posted by calculoso

How will legalization prevent this fake stuff from still being sold?

Same thing that keeps bootlegged alcohol from being around. It sure may be sold, but there wouldn't be much of a market for it.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Same thing that keeps bootlegged alcohol from being around. It sure may be sold, but there wouldn't be much of a market for it.

But there are dangerous, unconventional methods people use to get drunk (or whatever) when they can't afford the real thing. Lysol, Anti-freeze, all those horror stories of people digging through the house for anything and everything.

[jayswin]

Yeah, education would be a huge part of legalization, I think polak was maybe taking the word "education" the wrong way.

Sounds like he was thinking of the old "drugs are bad, and if you even look at drugs you are bad, too. Don't do drugs"/end of education.

Real education in terms of teaching the actual effects of individual drugs in comparison to each other and alcohol, the highs, the possibility of overdose, the long term effects, the short term/long term financial commitment etc. would be very insightful and helpful.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by MattyC

But there are dangerous, unconventional methods people use to get drunk (or whatever) when they can't afford the real thing. Lysol, Anti-freeze, all those horror stories of people digging through the house for anything and everything.

Of course, but let's not get too "politically American" on the issue, though - "It wouldn't be perfect, so we can't do it"/"Here's an issue I found, so solution = busted".

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by GGG

Provided the legalized product is cost effective and available there is no reason for the illegal stuff to exist.

It's kinda like needle exchanges. When given easy access to clean needles addicts will choose clean needles over dirty ones

In other words, all drugs would have to be legalized for this to be effective, not just some of them.. As in legalizing pot would help to prevent laced joints but wouldn't help prevent laced E... legalizing E would prevent this but not deal with other drugs.

[polak]

What would you change with the way we currently educate children about drugs? People say that the "drugs are bad" spoon feeding we do is wrong, well okay, ehat are you suggesting then? Its not just you Matty, I see that argument thrown out all the time but its a totally empty platitude. There is no magical education plan that is going to somehow educate kids about drugs that will convince them not to do it. If there was, we would be doing it. You think teaching kids that MDMA is actually f***ing fantastic and you need to drink water and chew gum will somehow change something?

How do you stop someone from putting a needle in their arm and injecting heroin into their blood through education?

Society has to realize that people are going to do drugs. forever. Why? Because they make you feel so great that people are literally willing to die for it. So we have to decide whether we want to give those people the option to purchase legal, safe drugs so they know what they're getting or we don't risk the probable increase in addition rates just to save people that are already doing it.

Personally the fact that we continue to let people die from softer drugs like Weed, Acid (which is literally harmless unless you have scitzophrenia), shrooms and Mdma, hell maybe even coke (although that gets dicey) is ridiculous. No one should be dying from those drugs.

[Coach]

Oh I agree, that's where the education thing comes into play. Isn't this stuff legal as is? I know SP said it's not the same stuff, but it is a legally prescribed thing. So I view this as the "antifreeze" version.

We don't get educated about this stuff in school. At least we didn't. We were told drugs are bad sure, but we weren't ever told about dangers of prescription meds, the difference between opioids and plant based drugs, etc... And even things people may use alternatives and why it's terrible.

The depth is just not there.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Same thing that keeps bootlegged alcohol from being around. It sure may be sold, but there wouldn't be much of a market for it.

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why the homeless have the freshest breath around and why mouthwash is a popular item at downtown drug stores?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why the homeless have the freshest breath around and why mouthwash is a popular item at downtown drug stores?

I get your point, but at least that's a minuscule percentage of alcoholics. If alcohol were illegal it would be those people plus everyone else drinking "uncontrolled alcohol". Which is why I'm always confused by this talking point to shut down legalization discussion.

"It won't 100% end illegal use, so nice try with that idea!!".

[activeStick]

Yeah more serious punishment needs to happen for convicted drug dealers but I don't think it should be special just for Fentanyl. Yeah it has faster, more immediate outcomes but some of the other harder drugs though may have a lower risk of the user dying after a single use, the long term addiction and subsequent problems as a result of that long term addiction are just as bad.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Same thing that keeps bootlegged alcohol from being around. It sure may be sold, but there wouldn't be much of a market for it.

Bootlegged alcohol is really much more of a rural issue though. When I was in university I had a friend who was from a rural Alberta farm. I didn't see him for two weeks. When I finally did see him he said "Moonshine was ready; time to bottle and deliver."

His family made thousands of gallons of moonshine every year and typically sold an entire batch in a week or so. When it was all bottled (jugged) they would load up a moving van size truck and make their rounds to Hutterite colonies and local farmers. They never had any left at the end of a delivery day. Apparently the recipe for a moonshine and coke was: Take a two litre of coke. Drink a gulp out of it and then fill the rest of the bottle with shine. The stuff they were producing was in the 90% range. One time I was at the farm and we did shots each after supper. I was in bed by 8:30 pm.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by polak

Personally the fact that we continue to let people die from softer drugs like Weed, Acid (which is literally harmless unless you have schizophrenia), shrooms and MDMA, hell maybe even coke (although that gets dicey) is ridiculous. No one should be dying from those drugs.

Nobody dies from marijuana overdose.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Reaper

Nobody dies from marijuana overdose.

They can get hurt from it being laced.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Dude, I kind of defended your comments as being rather innocent and just representative of one aspect of drug addiction - the emergencies. You shouldn't double down on it as a counter to a "bleeding heart documentary".

Did you actually watch it? It's not a bleeding heart documentary at all, it's very frank and well researched/produced.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It's like some people don't know that a documentary is a carefully crafted narrative. Vice especially loves pulling the heart-string/activist card.

"How can you feel how you feel based on real life interactions with these people? I saw a DOCUMENTARY!"

I'm not at all against the point they're making, or that fentanyl is bad and serious. I just think there's nothing worse that discrediting someone's real day-to-day life because you watched 52 minutes of TV.

Originally Posted by Reaper

Bootlegged alcohol is really much more of a rural issue though. When I was in university I had a friend who was from a rural Alberta farm. I didn't see him for two weeks. When I finally did see him he said "Moonshine was ready; time to bottle and deliver."

His family made thousands of gallons of moonshine every year and typically sold an entire batch in a week or so. When it was all bottled (jugged) they would load up a moving van size truck and make their rounds to Hutterite colonies and local farmers. They never had any left at the end of a delivery day. Apparently the recipe for a moonshine and coke was: Take a two litre of coke. Drink a gulp out of it and then fill the rest of the bottle with shine. The stuff they were producing was in the 90% range. One time I was at the farm and we did shots each after supper. I was in bed by 8:30 pm.

Fair point, but theres also the matter of degree. The issue with bootlegged alcohol isnt its strength but what its distilled out of.

During prohibition people would ferment just about anything up to and including wood, and there were chemicals and toxins involved.

So as long as they're distilling normal things its not really a huge big deal unless they're drinking tons of the stuff. And whats the punishment for bootlegging booze anyways?

I get JW's point though...as an aside: jayswin/JW/Justice Warrior? No? Fine.

Anyways, I get his point, 'if it doesnt 100% solve the problem theres no point in doing anything' is a classic cop out.

I havent watched this documentary yet and I'll say thats its highly unlikely that I will, the VICE brand has been trodden into the filth for me, they used to be stone-cold gold, but in the last 3-5 years they've descended past 'unreliable garbage' and embedded themselves in the quagmire of 'pseudo-elitist hippie propaganda.'

Which is perfect, if they do something good it doesnt matter because they've soiled any and all credibility. This is why you have to maintain standards of journalism.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by polak

They can get hurt from it being laced.

They're not dying from marijuana then. They're dying from whatever drug they're accidentally ingesting. Not from marijuana.

[calumniate]

Locke, I thought the documentary was worth watching. Real doctors, real addicts in locales of Calgary that you'd definitely recognize