Calgary Cops caught using excessive force?

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Officers are not the pope, they are not infallible. Their discretion can be wrong.

Never once have I ever said this. Again, your chance to show your arguments or side of the story is in court, not on the street.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Not if the police thought them guilty of something...i mean that's how it works.

People are arrested all the time who are never charged (tho this guy was) after further investigation. Thats the system we have.

Well I think the police should do their best to avoid aggressively arresting innocent people. That's the system we are supposed to have.

But hey, as long as he potentially could be guilty of "something" I guess...

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

A) Yes he was likely guilty of something. Presumption of innocence though.
B) Being a D bag isn't a criminal offence. This has no bearing on how the police should react to him, with means to force
C) He appears to be resisting in so far as to try and defend himself from a beating. You know, like a person would normally do. The police have an obligation, legally, to only use necessary force to restrain him. Brock Lesnar style closed fist punches to the face with him laying on his back doesn't meet that standard.

Pretty much the main point here. This was well beyond that threshold.

The expectation on police should be to use the minimum amount of force required to control a situation, not to shrug our shoulders when they go beyond that.

Yes its a difficult job, but we should expect the police to maintain control in these situations.

Also, the statement was ridiculous. The guy got a beating and a traffic ticket? Doesn't add up. Saying "you didn't see what happened before that" is not a good explanation. Certainly anything that warranted that type of force must've warranted charges.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Well I think the police should do their best to avoid aggressively arresting innocent people. That's the system we are supposed to have.

But hey, as long as he potentially could be guilty of "something" I guess...

Of course police should avoid arresting innocent people, just like people should cooperate when detained or arrested.

[underGRADFlame]

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

Never once have I ever said this. Again, your chance to show your arguments or side of the story is in court, not on the street.

If I'm innocent and the police have no reason to arrest me, it is absurd that I have to just accept their excessive use of force and bad judgement.

It doesn't excuse someone resisting arrest but it also doesn't excuse the police actions.

[FurnaceFace]

My guess is if the police decide to subdue/put down someone they do so in a swift decisive manner to end things quickly. I also guess they keep using force until the person they take down complies/relaxes. If I'm right then to me it's pretty tough to make a definitive comment about what we see in the video. Given the heightened tensions I'm sure all law enforcement are feeling these days, they are likely going to err on caution, which in their eyes is end the threat immediately.

I feel more empathy towards police these days as they seem to be in almost a no win situation regardless of what they do. Take the guy down, "excessive force!" Don't take the guy down and he does something "the police were right there and did nothing!"

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Well I think the police should do their best to avoid aggressively arresting innocent people. That's the system we are supposed to have.

But hey, as long as he potentially could be guilty of "something" I guess...

Im sure they do just that.

This guy was not innocent in their eyes however, so not sure what your point is in relation to this incident.

[btimbit]

Unless you have a guy on each limb, the guy is hardly pinned to the ground. He has way too much freedom of movement to be considered subdued or under control. In threads like this you can always see who has no experience in physically trying to control someone. Whenever stuff like this gets posted online it always looks excessive, because it has to be. Otherwise it doesn't work, and more people get hurt.

I think one reason people naturally have such an issue with this is because of the setting. It's a nice day, during Stampede. People are enjoying drinks on streetside patios, it's sunny out. This interrupted that pleasant setting. If this happened at 1:00am, in front of a crappy bar, in the rain, I think people's natural reactions would be different.

We see clearly at the start of the video that the guy is aggressive. We know from the press release he was a part of a road rage incident and judging from his body language, he was likely the aggressor in that situation as well.

Believe it or not, takedowns like this are normal. Ones like it, and even worse ones, happen numerous times a day. But we never hear anything about those because it doesn't get filmed. If it seems like the CPS are just brushing it off, it's because like it or not, this type of thing is normal. The fact that their isn't any sort of investigation yet is also pretty telling, because there's people in the CPS and in the courts whose job it is to find bad cops and pin them to the wall. But there's really nothing to see here.

I'm not saying anything about this was good, or fine, or anything like that. Because it's still awful, and brutal, and unfortunate. Just that it's also justified and necessary.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Im sure they do just that.

This guy was not innocent in their eyes however, so not sure what your point is in relation to this incident.

You are sure all cops do that?

You know they are humans right? Not magical robots?

I honestly don't know how anyone could just know that all cops are perfect and always act in perfect judgement.

[btimbit]

Also, where are people getting that the guy was innocent and just got a simple traffic violation? The ticket he got was a pretty serious one, you don't just mail a payment and be done with it. It's a mandatory court appearance, can involve thousands in fines and 6 months in jail.

[MrMastodonFarm]

It's obviously excessive, it wasn't deadly and I doubt those left much of a mark but it's obviously excessive.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

If I'm innocent and the police have no reason to arrest me, it is absurd that I have to just accept their excessive use of force and bad judgement.

It doesn't excuse someone resisting arrest but it also doesn't excuse the police actions.

Would it help steer this discussion back on course if I pointed out that in Canada, you're fully entitled to resist an unlawful arrest?

It is self-evident that a charge of assault to resist arrest requires proof of a lawful arrest. This is not a Charter issue; it is a fundamental element of the offence. The requirement reflects the important fact that in a democracy agents of the state operate within limits. If an arrest is unlawful, resistance to that arrest is not unlawful ... If the arrest was unlawful, assuming that Mr. Duncan resisted as described, he was entitled to do so.

Could have found other similar quotes, but that one happens to come from one of the funniest decisions ever recorded, http://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc...13oncj160.html

[MrMastodonFarm]

The only way those shots to the head are justified is if the dude kept asking "Am I being detained".

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

You are sure all cops do that?

You know they are humans right? Not magical robots?

I honestly don't know how anyone could just know that all cops are perfect and always act in perfect judgement.

holy smokes do you move the goalposts when out of answers.

No not every cop is perfect...in fact none of them are, though no one ever even came close to suggesting that.

The vast vast majority of police however, do the very best they know how and are trained to do. I have zero doubt about that.

/end of thread derail on my part

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by btimbit

It's a mandatory court appearance, can involve thousands in fines and 6 months in jail.

Uh, he was given a ticket for stunting... It's like a $500 fine.

[PepsiFree]

And I don't think this thread shows who has been in a fist fight or had to subdue a resisting person and who hasn't.

I think it shows who is able to control themselves in those situations, and who isn't.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by tkflames

I don't really understand the logic that you are entitled to a soft ride by the cops if you are resisting arrest. If you resist arrest and continue to resist as you are being subdued, I have no issue with the cop using excessive force. If you disagree with the arrest challenge it in court and submit a complaint like a mature member of society. IMO Excessive force only applies to those not resisting arrest and around the use of weapons.

You have no problems with the police using excessive force in certain situations?

Do you know what excessive force means?? Do you mean to say, you dont mind the police using extreme force in certain situations??

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

If I'm innocent and the police have no reason to arrest me, it is absurd that I have to just accept their excessive use of force and bad judgement.

It doesn't excuse someone resisting arrest but it also doesn't excuse the police actions.

You may very well innocent, but Joe public witness may have mistakingly Id'd you as a suspect giving police reasonable grounds to detain you for investigation. You might not like it, you might be mad but you are legally obligated to cooperate. Might be smart to cooperate, explain your position and provide evidence to the show your innocence but that's just my 2 cents. You go keep fighting the man.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Uh, he was given a ticket for stunting... It's like a $500 fine.

It can be. It's a minimun for $436 and 3 demerits. It can also be a $2500 fine and jail time. It'll be decided in his court appearance. Alberta's actually the most leniant in Canada when it comes to that charge, in Ontario it's a minimum of $2000 and can be up to $10 000

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

And I don't think this thread shows who has been in a fist fight or had to subdue a resisting person and who hasn't.

I think it shows who is able to control themselves in those situations, and who isn't.

Sure it does. People seem to think it's physically possible to calmy control this guy without use of force. So what would you have done differently to control yourself