Okay, 'peers' isnt the right word as many of those guys were great players, how about: the average talent level was very low.
You had great players, good players and whole lot of filler.
I would agree that you had great players, good players and a whole lot of filler. But then you also had Gretzky. While Gretzky was putting up 210+ points and 85+ goals, most of those other great players didn't score 140 points or 70 goals. There's only 2 players not named Gretzky or Lemieux to score over 150 points, Yzerman in 1989 with 155 and Esposito in 1971 with 152. And yet Gretzky did it 10 times, including four times with over 200 points. Kane had an unreal year when he scored nearly 20% more points than his next closest competitors, it's almost unheard of in recent years (sans one year of Crosby domination). Gretzky was destroying his competitors, outproducing them by 70%.
I don't care too much for Gretzky, but I do like players like Bossy and the way people belittle Gretzky's absolute domination of everyone, including other greats like Bossy, I believe diminishes their accomplishments. Gretzky didn't destroy the league because of the era, or all other player sucking, he did it because he was one of a kind. I mean he's still not as good as Orr, but he's certainly on another tier than anyone playing today.
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Something people forget about the 80s when they talk about Gretzky v Crosby is that it wasn't only that goal scoring was easier across the board. It's that:
1) Gretzky had an elite supporting cast. Imagine Karlsson, Toews, Stamkos, all being the 2nd fiddle to the best player in the league.
2) Gretzky played in a crap division/conference. You had Calgary and you had Edmonton. Besides that you had uncompetitive teams that would get blown out nightly by the 2016 Oilers. Goaltending was bad relative to the rest of the league, and the quality of play was bad relative to the rest of the league. The quallty of play out East was much greater on average, and Lemieux was the one facing that competition. Think of the Southeast division that used to be Ovechkin's old stomping ground, that was the Smythe.
3) Gretzky played in an era where pairings of defensive defensemen like Smid and Engelland were considered "stoppers". We've learned over the years that it's the opposite, defensemen like this get scored on more often. It was also mostly defensemen that played defense, not forwards. Nowadays you have six goalies connected on a string.
4) Gretzky played in an era where star players played the bulk of the minutes, and the bulk of the power play. These days your star forwards play a third, not half of the game. They play half of the power play. Emphasis is on keeping your stars to short shift and hitting hard.
5) Gretzky's team used to intentionally create 4v4 and especially 3v3 scenarios by baiting opponents into offsetting penalties. They did this specifically because Gretzky was the best open ice player. To us, 3v3 is an overtime gimmick, but for Gretzky, it was a legitimate strategy to get goals.
It's, simply put, a different era now. In some ways better, in some ways worst, but impossible to compare. We really don't know if Crosby "isn't" as talented as Gretzky because the conditions are not the same to find out. All we know is that Crosby is so obviously the best player of our generation.
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Last edited by GranteedEV; 06-08-2016 at 04:18 PM.
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Something people forget about the 80s when they talk about Gretzky v Crosby is that it wasn't only that goal scoring was easier across the board. It's that:
1) Gretzky had an elite supporting cast. Imagine Karlsson, Toews, Stamkos, all being the 2nd fiddle to the best player in the league.
He still put up 170 points with the Kings after his scoring prime. Bernie Nicholls put up 70 goals with Gretzky, 150 points. The year before? 32 goals, 78 points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GranteedEV
2) Gretzky played in a crap division/conference. You had Calgary and you had Edmonton. Besides that you had uncompetitive teams that would get blown out nightly by the 2016 Oilers. Goaltending was bad relative to the rest of the league, and the quality of play was bad relative to the rest of the league. The quallty of play out East was much greater on average, and Lemieux was the one facing that competition. Think of the Southeast division that used to be Ovechkin's old stomping ground, that was the Smythe.
Lots of teams were blown out by the Oilers. Randomly picking the 1984 season, the Norris division gave up 1681 goals to the Smythe's 1706. The team that gave up the most goals was in the Patrick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GranteedEV
3) Gretzky played in an era where pairings of defensive defensemen like Smid and Engelland were considered "stoppers". We've learned over the years that it's the opposite, defensemen like this get scored on more often.
How come no one but Lemieux scored over 155 points? Gretzky put up 215 points. Again, I feel arguments like this belittle the other greats of that era.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GranteedEV
4) Gretzky played in an era where star players played the bulk of the minutes, and the bulk of the power play. These days your star forwards play a third, not half of the game. They play half of the power play. Emphasis is on keeping your stars to short shift and hitting hard.
I think it is tough to compare players from era to era. So instead will focus on this era - for which Crosby is the best player, and it isn't close.
Crosby has the personal hardware, stats, and championships.
Other players simply don't check all those boxes, including AO. It isn't even close.
The only player in this generation that is even close is Nik Lindstrom, but even then there ages may be too far apart from that to be a fair comparison.
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Crosby has been a total beast in the playoffs, his def game has been off the chart. You cant look at his points, he has been doing much more then scoring that people dont seem to see.
As for the best player talk, he could go down easy top 10, but will never catch Super Mario at #1.
He played in this era and still tore it up, and missed 8 full seasons due to injury, AND had ####ing cancer.
+ look at his 160 points in 60 games, that was one of the most unreal outputs ever seen in the NHL and that was done in 91-92.
Shorthanded goals, season (13 in 1988–89)
Only player to score 30+ power play goals in two different seasons.
Most power play points in a single season: (80)
Highest empty net goal game ratio (1 in every 27.7 games)
Highest empty net goal average career among players with 400+ goals: (5%)
Most goals scored or assisted on, season (57.3% of team's goals, 1988–89)
Only player with three 8-point games (regular season & playoffs)
Only NHL player to ever score 5 goals 5 different ways in one game (even-strength, PP, PK, penalty shot and empty net)
Highest career goals per game average in playoffs: (.710)
Most points in a single all star game: (6)
Most power play goals for a single franchise (236).
Impressive for playing in the touch and grab era, and playing under 1000 games.
But I am a die hard Pens fan, have been since the 87 Canada cup..so yeah..
Crosby has been a total beast in the playoffs, his def game has been off the chart. You cant look at his points, he has been doing much more then scoring that people dont seem to see.
As for the best player talk, he could go down easy top 10, but will never catch Super Mario at #1.
He played in this era and still tore it up, and missed 8 full seasons due to injury, AND had ####ing cancer.
+ look at his 160 points in 60 games, that was one of the most unreal outputs ever seen in the NHL and that was done in 91-92.
Shorthanded goals, season (13 in 1988–89)
Only player to score 30+ power play goals in two different seasons.
Most power play points in a single season: (80)
Highest empty net goal game ratio (1 in every 27.7 games)
Highest empty net goal average career among players with 400+ goals: (5%)
Most goals scored or assisted on, season (57.3% of team's goals, 1988–89)
Only player with three 8-point games (regular season & playoffs)
Only NHL player to ever score 5 goals 5 different ways in one game (even-strength, PP, PK, penalty shot and empty net)
Highest career goals per game average in playoffs: (.710)
Most points in a single all star game: (6)
Most power play goals for a single franchise (236).
Impressive for playing in the touch and grab era, and playing under 1000 games.
But I am a die hard Pens fan, have been since the 87 Canada cup..so yeah..
GO PENS!
Not to take anything away from Mario but he did play mostly in a time (especially in his prime) where it was far easier to score goals. You specify 91-92 the NHL average was 7 goals per game and was even higher the next season. It was later 90s and early 2000s when scoring really dropped off. NHL goal scoring is far lower during Sid's career.
I personally believe Mario Lemieux was the greatest hockey player this planet has ever seen and I don't know if we will ever see such a combination of size and immense skill ever again. He was the perfect offensive player as he could beat you any and every way as he was unstoppable. I consider myself privileged to see him play live numerous times and since then I've never seen a player remotely close to him.
Last edited by Erick Estrada; 06-08-2016 at 09:33 PM.
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oh for sure Mario is at the very least in the top three....but lets not pretend his production was during the dead puck, clutch and grab era...his prime years were in a league where scoring numbers were some of the highest in history
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I think Crosby is top-5, with Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, and Jagr. I don't really think it was a skill level disparity in the 80s that led to Gretzky and Lemieux outshining other great players by such large amounts; rather, I think goaltending and coaching just make it much less likely that Crosby or anyone will ever be able to put such a gap between themselves as superstars and the other really good players in the league.
So much of the already-meagre goal scoring happens by screens, point shots, and general scrums around the net. Scoring through skill is pretty hard at the best of times these days. Systems and goalies are very, very difficult for one player to beat without other stuff going right, a bounce, deflection, missed assignment.
I think Crosby is in the tier of the greatest, above the Sakics and Yzermans and Bossys. Ovechkin I would put with those players, however.
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Crosby has been a total beast in the playoffs, his def game has been off the chart. You cant look at his points, he has been doing much more then scoring that people dont seem to see.
As for the best player talk, he could go down easy top 10, but will never catch Super Mario at #1.
He played in this era and still tore it up, and missed 8 full seasons due to injury, AND had ####ing cancer.
+ look at his 160 points in 60 games, that was one of the most unreal outputs ever seen in the NHL and that was done in 91-92.
Shorthanded goals, season (13 in 1988–89)
Only player to score 30+ power play goals in two different seasons.
Most power play points in a single season: (80)
Highest empty net goal game ratio (1 in every 27.7 games)
Highest empty net goal average career among players with 400+ goals: (5%)
Most goals scored or assisted on, season (57.3% of team's goals, 1988–89)
Only player with three 8-point games (regular season & playoffs)
Only NHL player to ever score 5 goals 5 different ways in one game (even-strength, PP, PK, penalty shot and empty net)
Highest career goals per game average in playoffs: (.710)
Most points in a single all star game: (6)
Most power play goals for a single franchise (236).
Impressive for playing in the touch and grab era, and playing under 1000 games.
But I am a die hard Pens fan, have been since the 87 Canada cup..so yeah..
GO PENS!
For such a big Pens fan, you should know he scored 160 in 60 games in 92-93, not 91-92
oh for sure Mario is at the very least in the top three....but lets not pretend his production was during the dead puck, clutch and grab era...his prime years were in a league where scoring numbers were some of the highest in history
Unfortunately Lemieux, outside of Orr, is the biggest what-if in NHL history. So a lot of this argument becomes a scenario of could he or would he.
But in the 2000-2001 season the league had a 2.76 goal/game average which is extremely comparable to the last three seasons of the NHL.
In 2000-2001 the highest point producers were Jagr and Sakic with ~120 before a decent drop off. Certainly wasn't the most talented NHL year by any stretch, but we're not getting into too crazy different numbers here. Lemieux put up 76 points in 43 games after coming back from retirement. It's a 145 point pace for a 35 year old Lemieux who just sat out the last 3 years.
Okay sure, maybe 145 point pace isn't comparable to the ~200 points he had at his peak.
But then there's 1996. Sure, it wasn't a historically low season but it will go down as part of the Deadpuck Era. Detroit had already implemented the Left-Wing Lock, the Devils had previous won a Stanley Cup utilizing the neutral zone trap. Hasek, Brodeur, Roy, I mean we're looking at a golden age of goalies.
If you look at the league leaders who didn't play with Lemieux, the numbers are inflated compared to today, but not an exorbitant and the list is filled with some of the best players ever in their prime:
26 year old Sakic - 120 points
22 year old Forsberg - 116
22 year old Lindros - 115
25 year old Selanne - 108
20 year old Kariya - 108
25 year old Fedorov - 107
Lemieux had just missed the last 2 seasons because of a cancer. He came back, was able to play 70 games. For the previous two seasons he sat on the sidelines because the radiation caused great fatigue. He had a modest season that saw him...
Just kidding, he scored 161 points in 70 games. That's an 189 point pace. In the Deadpuck Era, after coming back from cancer. Against Mother ####ing Roy, Broduer and Hasek. Chelios, Bourque and Leetch were the nominees for the Norris. Lidstrom was 25.
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There's no one that plays at his level. He sees the game so well that it's impossible for linemates to keep up. I was worried he'd never get back on track after his concussion issues.
This about sums it up for me.
There are so many plays where Crosby will fire a pass off his backhand in the corners behind the net and his linemate, whether it's Hornqvist or whoever, will just not be ready for the pass. Pucks are just flying off his teammates sticks that seem amazed that somehow Crosby was able to get that puck to them.
Playing under Johnston stunted his point totals this season and last as well. I think he will be back to 100 points next season.
Unfortunately Lemieux, outside of Orr, is the biggest what-if in NHL history. So a lot of this argument becomes a scenario of could he or would he.
But in the 2000-2001 season the league had a 2.76 goal/game average which is extremely comparable to the last three seasons of the NHL.
In 2000-2001 the highest point producers were Jagr and Sakic with ~120 before a decent drop off. Certainly wasn't the most talented NHL year by any stretch, but we're not getting into too crazy different numbers here. Lemieux put up 76 points in 43 games after coming back from retirement. It's a 145 point pace for a 35 year old Lemieux who just sat out the last 3 years.
Okay sure, maybe 145 point pace isn't comparable to the ~200 points he had at his peak.
But then there's 1996. Sure, it wasn't a historically low season but it will go down as part of the Deadpuck Era. Detroit had already implemented the Left-Wing Lock, the Devils had previous won a Stanley Cup utilizing the neutral zone trap. Hasek, Brodeur, Roy, I mean we're looking at a golden age of goalies.
If you look at the league leaders who didn't play with Lemieux, the numbers are inflated compared to today, but not an exorbitant and the list is filled with some of the best players ever in their prime:
26 year old Sakic - 120 points
22 year old Forsberg - 116
22 year old Lindros - 115
25 year old Selanne - 108
20 year old Kariya - 108
25 year old Fedorov - 107
Lemieux had just missed the last 2 seasons because of a cancer. He came back, was able to play 70 games. For the previous two seasons he sat on the sidelines because the radiation caused great fatigue. He had a modest season that saw him...
Just kidding, he scored 161 points in 70 games. That's an 189 point pace. In the Deadpuck Era, after coming back from cancer. Against Mother ####ing Roy, Broduer and Hasek. Chelios, Bourque and Leetch were the nominees for the Norris. Lidstrom was 25.
Although he only played 22 games in 93-94, he only missed one full season. The lockout shortened 1994-95 season.
