For the love of Johnny - career prediction

[Buff]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

This is my last post on it because we are getting off topic. I am on break so I don't have time but if someone can project what Fleury's point totals would have been had he played the same amount of games as Jarome did for the Flames? Fleury played part of his career in the dead puck era, Fleury had worse linemates than Iginla for a good portion of his time here, Fleury played with fire and passion on the ice and when the team was not doing well he would hold his team mates accountable, Iginla would merely smile and say we need to be better. Fleury had more international success and also helped his team to a SC. Both are legends of the game, calling Fleury nothing less is asinine.

Jarome Iginla
GP - 1219 | G - 525 | A - 570 | PTS - 1095

Theoren Fleury
GP - 791 | G - 376 | A - 487 | PTS - 863
Projected
GP - 1219 | G - 579 | A - 750 | PTS - 1329

That projection is, of course, with all things being equal. Theo would have slowed down his scoring a bit as years progressed whether he had problems or not, but he had problems that were becoming a bigger issue in the latter part of his career. One could argue that if he didn't have those demons to battle that he could have been so much more but you could also speculate that without those demons to battle he may not have had that chip on his shoulder that made him so competitive.

[polak]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

Iginla is a legend. To me he's in the same class as guys like Yzerman and Sakic. Not quite a Gretzky/Messier/Lemieux level guy, but one tier below. An absolute legend. If this was baseball, he'd be one of the guys every team gives gifts to when he retires.

Can Gaudreau be that guy one day? Perhaps, but unlikely.

I don't know how you can say that it's unlikely. He's ahead of Jarome when Jarome was Gaudreau's age. Sure he might not be able to maintain the longevity that Iginla had but you can't argue that it's unlikely he can be that good. He's on pace to be better.

Also now that fighting is basically gone, Gaudreau is SO much more exciting to watch.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Buff

That projection is, of course, with all things being equal. Theo would have slowed down his scoring a bit as years progressed whether he had problems or not, but he had problems that were becoming a bigger issue in the latter part of his career.

This is why extrapolating a scoring rate is not really meaningful. "If only Pavel Bure had played 1219 career games, he would have scored 759 career goals!" "Oh yeah? Well if Mike Bossy had played that long, he'd have scored 928!"

No... definitely not.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

This is my last post on it because we are getting off topic. I am on break so I don't have time but if someone can project what Fleury's point totals would have been had he played the same amount of games as Jarome did for the Flames? Fleury played part of his career in the dead puck era, Fleury had worse linemates than Iginla for a good portion of his time here, Fleury played with fire and passion on the ice and when the team was not doing well he would hold his team mates accountable, Iginla would merely smile and say we need to be better. Fleury had more international success and also helped his team to a SC. Both are legends of the game, calling Fleury nothing less is asinine.

err... what?

2 things that are asinine about Fleury as a Flame and are irrevocably true:

1) He was an extremely selfish player.

Fleury was a puck-hog. Sure, the Flames 'sucked', but they didn't suck as bad as people seem to remember either. Stillman was on that team. Bure was on that team. What happened when he left? Their PPG increased... drastically in Bure's case. I was so fricken tired of watching Fleury just try to do everything himself instead of using his teammates more. It was frustrating.

2) He was an extremely bad teammate.

The one thing I will never forget about Fleury's time in Calgary was his famous: "I'm too tired to practice, and besides, I'm so good I don't need to" spiel. Yeah, that is setting the example. That is holding his teammates accountable. When a team's best player comes out and says he shouldn't have to practice like the rest of the team does, what does that say?

I was glad when Fleury was traded. I loved him as he came up. I couldn't stand him as the years passed. Flames messed up hard I think in that they decided to keep Fleury, and let Roberts go. I believe Roberts was the real leader that year in Calgary in his comeback. He did everything for the team, and he willed that team into the playoffs. Apparently Roberts and Fleury did not get along, and with Roberts' health issues, the team sided with Fleury. How did that go? That was the last time the Flames made the playoffs.

As for the 'dead puck era' - exactly how many seasons did Jarome play in the 'dead puck era' vs Fleury? Fleury played on much more talented teams for the first half of his career in Calgary as well. Heck, Jarome Iginla has never played on such a stacked team from 1989-1995.

FYI - this is the "Dead Puck Era":

What is Dead Puck Era?

A period of time in the NHL, between the 1993-94 season and the 2004-05 NHL lockout, in which the game saw a significant decline in scoring. The arguments behind the decline included the introduction and widespread usage of the neutral zone trap and other defensive systems, the decline in talent and the prevalence of clutch and grab.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/dictio...-puck-era.aspx

1994-95 season contained such 'bums' as:
Nieuwendyk and Housely - who were both above PPG players that season. Jarome only wishes he could have played with a bona fide #1 hall of fame center and a defencemen that was above a ppg. At that point, that was the crappiest Flames team since they won the championship with Fleury as a rookie.

The year before (93-94) they had Reichel, Nieuwendyk, MacInnis and Roberts ALL over a PPG. Jarome had to leave Calgary to play in Pittsburgh to get that much support, and that team still didn't have as many PPG (and over) players.

Fleury spent 4 seasons in Calgary on the 'crappy' Calgary teams. Actually, a little less - 3 and 2/3 of a season on the Calgary Sparks. How many has Jarome spent? How many of those years was during the dead puck era? How many PPG players has Jarome played with in Calgary?

Jarome only WISHES that he spent that much time with high-calibre players. Imagine Jarome getting set-up by Nieuwendyk or Gilmour. Imagine Jarome having a Gary Roberts making room for him. Imagine an Al MacInnis rifling the puck at the net and letting Iginla tap in those huge juicy rebounds. Imagine Iginla having 5 years outside of the dead puck era. Poor Fleury.. he never had anyone to play with.

[Corral]

Originally Posted by spuzzum

would you trade Johnny for the exact clone of Iggy and have him play out his career all over again, or roll the dice and see what comes with Johnny over the next 15 years?

Yes I would. Johnny would be gone for an Iggy clone without a seconds thought.

All time greatest Flame? Iginla and Fleury are a tie in my books.

Which Flame would I tap on the shoulder to score the must-have goal in the dying moments of the third? Doug Gilmour

[Reggie Dunlop]

Gaudreau still has a lot to prove. Just sayin'.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Buff

Jarome Iginla
GP - 1219 | G - 525 | A - 570 | PTS - 1095

Theoren Fleury
GP - 791 | G - 376 | A - 487 | PTS - 863
Projected
GP - 1219 | G - 579 | A - 750 | PTS - 1329

That projection is, of course, with all things being equal. Theo would have slowed down his scoring a bit as years progressed whether he had problems or not, but he had problems that were becoming a bigger issue in the latter part of his career. One could argue that if he didn't have those demons to battle that he could have been so much more but you could also speculate that without those demons to battle he may not have had that chip on his shoulder that made him so competitive.

But they aren't even close to equal as it was a different era with different scoring,

Fleury cracked the top 10 in league scoring once in his career and that was only 8th, Iginla did it 3 times including winning the Art Ross. I totally believe Iggy would have had a couple of 70 goals seasons had he played in the early 90's.

I'm a fan of Fleury and actually considered myself a friend back in the day but it's amazing how quick people forget just how good Iginla was for about 12 straight years as a flame.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

Gaudreau still has a lot to prove. Just sayin'.

That's what Treliving/Burke is trying to sell his agent.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Corral

Yes I would. Johnny would be gone for an Iggy clone without a seconds thought.

Selfishly I'd take Johnny. SO much more exciting to watch.