Pakistan Park Attack Targeting Christians Kills 65, Mostly Children

[T@T]

How about a sign above every mosque "we denounce sharia law here" what would happen?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Maybe you're involved with anti-terrorism efforts or the Muslim community and have the appropriate knowledge to be making suggestions for how to fix the problem. I don't. Your solution is clear cut but ignores the factors outside of the teachings of Islam that drives people to extremism.

It ignores nothing of the sort. I pointed to intelligence and law enforcement as well.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I just think your use of the term "moderate Muslim" is empty. Some think it's a term bred from islamophobia. What's a "moderate Muslim" to you? In most circles, you'd call that a typical Muslim person and I see them speaking out constantly. A typical Muslim, the majority, does not support extremism. Who are you calling for action from?

Do you know how many arguments I've gotten into online with people who think all Muslims are fanatics, who think we should ban Muslim immigration to Canada, and believe we're in a life-or-death struggle of civilizations between the West and Islam? This is just another case where if you don't hew to one ideological extreme or the other you get it in the neck from both sides.

But you might want to answer corsi's question about who you think are radical Muslims. How about those who think apostates, including anyone who shows disrespect to the prophet, should be killed? Radicals, or regular Muslims? Or those who believe suicide bombing is often or sometimes justified? Both those groups number in the tens of millions. Obviously those tens of millions aren't all terrorists, but they're the fertile soil from which terrorism grows.

The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society

These things all exist on a continuum, in Islam and other belief systems. Do you think anyone other than the people who actually beat and kill homosexuals in the U.S. can do anything about gay bashing? Me, I think there are a lot of people who don't actually beat gays who contribute to an environment that encourages or tolerates gay bashing, and that the rest of us have some role to play in making those beliefs unacceptable. I regard other extreme beliefs, including radical Islam, the same way.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by T@T

How about a sign above every mosque "we denounce sharia law here" what would happen?

Ha? What are you trying to ask or say?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Won't make that much of a difference in terrorism, in fact some of these people are used as examples of the need to fight to save the religion. In my opinion, the two things that will show some real impact are 1) beating or greatly reducing the land of Isis which shows that you are on a losing team 2) Solving conflicts like Israel/Palestine

Unfortunately, 2 isn't very likely. I think 1 is certainly right, in demonstrating that they don't have a viable state, but realistically if ISIS falls some other group is going to attempt to do something similar.

Supporting these reformists won't stop terrorism outright; nothing can do that. But if those people are being used as examples of why the religion needs saving, then the people making that argument have revealed themselves as being part of the problem and their views need to be defeated by Muslims who see the world as you do. I know Nawaz sometimes dramatically calls that process a war for the soul of your religion; a bit much on the rhetoric, but you can see where he's coming from nonetheless. It's a conversation worth having and an ideological debate worth winning.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Much like in N Ireland you can't address the grievances of the extremists but there are things we can do as 'the west' to answer moderates concerns, altering our unquestioned support of Isreal when they have acted like ######s for a couple of decades would be a start.

Frankly, I don't think it would do much to drain the swamps. The fury at Israel stems from the humiliation of a proud Arab warrior culture losing war after war to Israel. Israel today can fend off conventional invasion from the Arab world without the help of the U.S. or anyone else.

And of course there are targets of terrorism that have nothing to with Israel or the Palestinians. Do you think the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists were murdered because they supported Israel? Charlie Hebdo were withering critics of Israel. No, the cartoonists were killed out of religious fanaticism. That's difficult for us to come to grips with, accustomed as we are to rational material concerns driving politics. But it's a reality we need to recognize, no matter how uncomfortable it makes us.

Then there's the Islamicist terrorism elsewhere in the world that has nothing to do with Israel. The attacks on Mumbai and elsewhere in India. Bali. Boko Haram. This recent bombing in Pakistan. Local politics provide the kindling. A violent brand of fundamentalist religion is the gasoline on the fire.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

The thing is, the internet has decentralized everything- now someone can go online and be radicalized by someone thousands of miles away and find out how to carry out an attack in secret. To answer your question, there's actually very little a moderate can do. They can spread a message of peace, but there'll always some guy out there online telling them to ignore the "sellouts".

That's an excellent point. We don't need radical imams in Canadian mosques to create young radicals who go off to Syria to join ISIS. But these people still have some contact with non-radical members of the community. And regular Muslims in Canada often have some contact with relatives in other countries where fundamentalist or violent interpretations of the religion are popular. Those are the points of contact.

[WCW Nitro]

Update: 10 members of one family were killed.

"Ten members of Qasim Ali's family were killed in the park, and all were Muslims. His 10-year-old nephew, Fahad Ali, lay wounded in a bed at home. He had lost his parents and a sister, and another two sisters also were badly injured."

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016...stan.html?_r=0

[Itse]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I was going to give this post the attention it deserves - which is none - but it's important to challenge people who cry bigotry whenever someone else disagrees with them about the nature of a problem.

You are not "disagreeing about the nature of the problem". You're making sentences that at best are really ignorant and just stupid things to say.

But now? When there has been a decade of news of how millions of muslims all over the world have protested against islamist violence. Clerics are preaching against the violence all over the world. There are hundreds if not thousands of stories written about it, with new ones coming out every day. Muslim policemen, soldiers and militia are fighting and dying in a war against islamist extremism from Africa to Middle-East to Asia.

And you, who I'm guessing have not lost a single person you know and who has probably never done a single thing for this cause have the nerve to start calling out "moderate muslims".

Right now, you disgust me, and I'm just so sick of people like you.

If you actually gave a damn, you'd know better than to say stupid crap like that. Obviously you don't, so don't start acting like you know anything or actually care.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Frankly, I don't think it would do much to drain the swamps. The fury at Israel stems from the humiliation of a proud Arab warrior culture losing war after war to Israel. Israel today can fend off conventional invasion from the Arab world without the help of the U.S. or anyone else.

I think it is fair to add as well that Israel is a western democracy, with human rights with the protection of minorities, regardless of sex, orientation or religion. The contrast between prosperity in Israel, regardless of religion, vs the rest of the region, looks terrible for neighbor governments. Vilification of Israel is vital to much of the Arab world's existence.

We need to promote Israel as a beacon of change for the region, not vilify it. If Palestinians simply prospered with Israel, it would be even worse (more sectarian violence) in the region than it is now for the region.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I think it is fair to add as well that Israel is a western democracy, with human rights with the protection of minorities, regardless of sex, orientation or religion. The contrast between prosperity in Israel, regardless of religion, vs the rest of the region, looks terrible for neighbor governments. Vilification of Israel is vital to much of the Arab world's existence.

We need to promote Israel as a beacon of change for the region, not vilify it. If Palestinians simply prospered with Israel, it would be even worse (more sectarian violence) in the region than it is now for the region.

err clarify the bolded?

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Unfortunately, 2 isn't very likely. I think 1 is certainly right, in demonstrating that they don't have a viable state, but realistically if ISIS falls some other group is going to attempt to do something similar.

Supporting these reformists won't stop terrorism outright; nothing can do that. But if those people are being used as examples of why the religion needs saving, then the people making that argument have revealed themselves as being part of the problem and their views need to be defeated by Muslims who see the world as you do. I know Nawaz sometimes dramatically calls that process a war for the soul of your religion; a bit much on the rhetoric, but you can see where he's coming from nonetheless. It's a conversation worth having and an ideological debate worth winning.

I get what you're saying, I just think that while debates and outreach or whatever have their place, when you have people willing to go into a park and blow kids up then there must be a counter-argument out there somewhere that is convincing enough people to carry out acts like these. That's why I personally think that the only significant dent long-term is defeating Isis militarily- it gives the optics that you're joining a losing team which I think is far more impactful than endless debates.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Itse

Muslim policemen, soldiers and militia are fighting and dying in a war against islamist extremism from Africa to Middle-East to Asia.

I know, and this is exactly what I'm encouraging. I have no idea what you're frothing about.

You know, these discussions might have some merit if people like you addressed the actual arguments presented in them, instead of immediately making assumptions about the people making the arguments, then inferring all sorts of beliefs and attitudes based on those assumptions, and refusing to engage the rational part of your brain.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Ha? What are you trying to ask or say?

What's so funny?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I know, and this is exactly what I'm encouraging. I have no idea what you're frothing about.

You know, these discussions might have some merit if people like you addressed the actual arguments presented in them, instead of immediately making assumptions about the people making the arguments, then inferring all sorts of beliefs and attitudes based on those assumptions, and refusing to engage the rational part of your brain.

To be fair, I think what he's saying is that Muslims ARE fighting against extremism. They ARE standing up. They ARE condemning it. The majority of Muslims do reject jihadism.

But your solution inexplicably is "moderate Muslims" need to condemn it. That is suggesting the majority aren't standing up and fighting against these people. They are. Which is why your solution is kind of superficial.

In response to your gay bashing analogy: same thing. It's great you're on board but it rings hollow when you come in while the process is already occurring and say "Hey, we need to be starting this process." I think the view that people should condemn discrimination based on homosexuality was thrown around sometime before I was born, thankfully. If it's 2016 and you're saying "You know what, how about we DON'T accept discrimination of the LGBT community?" Thanks all the same but yeah, I think most people got it already.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

err clarify the bolded?

History of the region, read up on the '48 war (and up to now, basically): explains how Israel was rejected by the Arab world. Had it not been rejected, the Palestinians would have prospered with Israel, instead of the opposite. And if they prospered with Israel, the rest of the region would be attacking Palestinians and Israeli's as they would both represent the west.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

To be fair, I think what he's saying is that Muslims ARE fighting against extremism. They ARE standing up. They ARE condemning it. The majority of Muslims do reject jihadism.

So who is funding terrorist organizations?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Frankly, I don't think it would do much to drain the swamps. The fury at Israel stems from the humiliation of a proud Arab warrior culture losing war after war to Israel. Israel today can fend off conventional invasion from the Arab world without the help of the U.S. or anyone else.

And of course there are targets of terrorism that have nothing to with Israel or the Palestinians. Do you think the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists were murdered because they supported Israel? Charlie Hebdo were withering critics of Israel. No, the cartoonists were killed out of religious fanaticism. That's difficult for us to come to grips with, accustomed as we are to rational material concerns driving politics. But it's a reality we need to recognize, no matter how uncomfortable it makes us.

Then there's the Islamicist terrorism elsewhere in the world that has nothing to do with Israel. The attacks on Mumbai and elsewhere in India. Bali. Boko Haram. This recent bombing in Pakistan. Local politics provide the kindling. A violent brand of fundamentalist religion is the gasoline on the fire.

I think Israel acts as a constant stick for the extremists to beat the moderates with, every couple of weeks the IDF does something stupid, effectively in our name, like shooting a wounded attacker in the head.
And I know and accept that the Palestinians have constantly done stupid violent things themselves but they are supposed to be terrorists, we are the ones claiming to be the good guys, asking the moderates to trust and help us.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

To be fair, I think what he's saying is that Muslims ARE fighting against extremism. They ARE standing up. They ARE condemning it. The majority of Muslims do reject jihadism.

But your solution inexplicably is "moderate Muslims" need to condemn it. That is suggesting the majority aren't standing up and fighting against these people. They are. Which is why your solution is kind of superficial

If you believe what you say is true then they're doing a ####ty job, fact is around the world moderate Muslims by the 10's of thousands are turning a blind eye to jihadism. If you can't see that or refuse to believe it then you can't be helped.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by T@T

How about a sign above every mosque "we denounce sharia law here" what would happen?

Well they wouldn't be mosques then would they, they'd need some other name,
'Under New Management, crazy Ali's one stop rug'n pray center'
'Not affiliated with Allah in any way'

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by T@T

How about a sign above every mosque "we denounce sharia law here" what would happen?

lol what?

As a muslim, I'll be happy to let you know that we all denounce extremism ALL the time. Every single 'moderate' muslim I know always states that this is bull####, every muslim leader at the mosques also says this. Unfortunately since it doesn't hit main stream media, you don't see that stuff. You only see what the media puts out which is a fraction of what is going on in the world.

As for denouncing sharia law, we live in Canada. Muslims in the western world follow western law. To help educate you a bit, sharia law is a legal system created based on Islam in conservative nations and extremism (as conducted by terrorists) are actions of harm based on poor interpretations of extremely old verses in the Quran. The same exists with radical Christians, buddhist monks, and jews (Christian Heritage Party vs. Christian Extremists).

If Muslims in Canada and the western world followed Sharia law, they would likely be locked up based on Canadian laws, because last time I checked, there is no governance for Sharia law here.

With this new found knowledge, please tell me what you would like muslims to do to denounce this? Make signs stating 'Muslim's are not terrorists'? Make rap songs stating that terrorists don't represent muslims?

Here is a good start to help you see what we try to preach: https://www.facebook.com/MANTofficial/

At the end of the day, it is virtually impossible to have EVERY moderate muslim in the world speak on behalf of the actions of a few. It's like me asking you (assuming you're Caucasian and/or Christian) to please denounce the KKK, the christian extremist who shot up the Wisconsin Sikh temple, various planned parenthood bombings, etc.