TJ Brodie and the Norris - Page 4 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

dino7c · 03-01-2016, 03:37 PM

if the trophy goes to who gets the most points in the regular season they should change the definition

CorsiHockeyLeague · 03-01-2016, 03:37 PM

If you actually think special teams are the most important part of the game then the conversation's over and we're not speaking the same language.

I love FDW's justification for this. "I have nothing to support my view, but trust me, I'm an expert who understands NHL defense and you guys just don't know what to look for in the defensive end."

Flames Draft Watcher · 03-01-2016, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dammage79

How does anyone other than Erik Karlsson with this trophy this season?

We're arguing about why or why not.

You apparently just want to hand it to the highest scoring d-man. Offensive play is the best indication of who is the best defensemen right?

Some people shockingly think that at least a passing consideration needs to be given to who's the best defensively. Crazy idea I know. Not sure why anybody would want to judge defensemen based on defensive play.

Flames Draft Watcher · 03-01-2016, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I love FDW's justification for this. "I have nothing to support my view, but trust me, I'm an expert who understands NHL defense and you guys just don't know what to look for in the defensive end."

Nothing to support my view?

I have thousands of hours of playoff footage to support my view. Go watch Erik Karlsson in the playoffs shift by shift and how much he helps his team win. Now go watch Drew Doughty. Now come back to us and tell us what you learned.

dino7c · 03-01-2016, 03:41 PM

WINNING is the most important part of the game

surely if he was the best d-man in 3 decades his team could make the playoffs in a league where more than half the teams qualify

CorsiHockeyLeague · 03-01-2016, 03:42 PM

"Guys, I swear, I've watched a lot of hockey and trust me I know what to look for. I'm not saying you guys haven't watched just as much or more because I have no idea who you are, but I'm the expert here, just trust me. Go watch again and come back to us and agree with me."

Coach · 03-01-2016, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Are they? Brodie's amazing but there's other amazing d-men in the league too. Saying he's top 10 easily may be a matter of underrating some of the other guys.

Doughty
Hedman
Keith
Josi
Karlsson
Burns
Weber
Subban
Ekman-Larsson
Giordano
Klingberg
Letang
Brodie
Barrie
Suter
Byfuglien
McDonagh
Ekblad
Pietrangelo
Seabrook

Which of those are the top 10 in the league? It's not so simple a list to make IMO. I think Brodie is easily in the conversation. Is he easily in the top 10? It's an interesting discussion that is very relevant to this thread. You believe he is, convince us!

I would take Brodie over all the bolded. I obviously watch the Flames more than anyone else so there's inherent bias there. Suter is borderline, and given age, I would have Brodie.

Bandwagon In Flames · 03-01-2016, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

If you actually think special teams are the most important part of the game then the conversation's over and we're not speaking the same language.

I love FDW's justification for this. "I have nothing to support my view, but trust me, I'm an expert who understands NHL defense and you guys just don't know what to look for in the defensive end."

Oh I forgot, Corsi is the most important part of the game.

When 90% of games are won and lost by 1 goal, you bet your dumb ass that it's the most crucial part to winning hockey games.

But you support Karlsson so obviously you only care about numbers, not results.

CorsiHockeyLeague · 03-01-2016, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

But you support Karlsson so obviously you only care about numbers, not results.

I love that you have no idea how ironic this statement is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattyC

I would take Brodie over all the bolded.

To get off this nonsensical Karlsson discussion for a minute, this is actually an interesting exercise. I'd take Brodie over all of the bolded.

Doughty
Hedman
Keith
Josi
Karlsson
Burns
Weber
Subban
Ekman-Larsson
Giordano
Klingberg
Letang
Barrie
Suter
Byfuglien
McDonagh
Ekblad
Pietrangelo
Seabrook

Pietrangelo and Gio were tough calls. Long story short, Brodie's really really good.

Enoch Root · 03-01-2016, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

"Guys, I swear, I've watched a lot of hockey and trust me I know what to look for. I'm not saying you guys haven't watched just as much or more because I have no idea who you are, but I'm the expert here, just trust me. Go watch again and come back to us and agree with me."

Ok.

But keep in mind that just yesterday, you called GMs idiots because their view of Russell didn't line up with yours.

CorsiHockeyLeague · 03-01-2016, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Ok. But keep in mind that just yesterday, you called GMs idiots because their view of Russell didn't line up with yours.

Yeah, and I have an evidence-based argument that I can express for my view on Kris Russell as a massively overrated player. It's not like I'm just saying "I've watched hockey for a long time and trust me, he's bad at it".

Although, that too.

dammage79 · 03-01-2016, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

We're arguing about why or why not.

You apparently just want to hand it to the highest scoring d-man. Offensive play is the best indication of who is the best defensemen right?

Some people shockingly think that at least a passing consideration needs to be given to who's the best defensively. Crazy idea I know. Not sure why anybody would want to judge defensemen based on defensive play.

Don't give me crap about how the rest of the world views this award. I'm basing my opinion on the fact that few people who actually do hand out the hardware agree with your assessment.

Nik Lidstrom was the king of the Norris for a reason, because he was the best all around D man in the game during his time. I don't disagree with your take on things but I don't agree with it all either. D men who have the offensive skill that Karlsson doe deserves just as much recognition for their efforts as well.

Enoch Root · 03-01-2016, 03:50 PM

re that list ^

I think Petrangelo has slipped in the last couple years and is buoyed somewhat by reputation.

I would rather have Brodie.

dino7c · 03-01-2016, 03:53 PM

The people that vote for these awards are idiots and have an eastern bias...it has been proven time and time again. Unless you think Jose Theadore was deserving of the hart

media members

Its always different results when the players or gm's vote

Bandwagon In Flames · 03-01-2016, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I love that you have no idea how ironic this statement is.

You obviously have no idea what I said if you think it was an ironic statement. Maybe I should rephrase.

You care about personal offensive numbers more than you do about team results.

I don't care if Karlsson gets a Hat-trick if he was on the ice for 4 goals against. Fact of the matter is that Karlsson plays the most minutes on his team and it's one of the worst teams in the league. He's a minus player while his line-mates somehow manage to maintain a respectable +/-.

CorsiHockeyLeague · 03-01-2016, 03:54 PM

And he's now devolved into pure self-parody by basing an argument on plus minus... This is gold, Jerry.

Flames Draft Watcher · 03-01-2016, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Yeah, and I have an evidence-based argument that I can express for my view on Kris Russell as a massively overrated player. It's not like I'm just saying "I've watched hockey for a long time and trust me, he's bad at it".

Although, that too.

A lot of us believe that watching hours of hockey is more valuable in terms of figuring out who's a good player then looking at stats for hours.

Sure the guy who looked at the stats has better internet arguments. But is he right? Hmmmm.

Bandwagon In Flames · 03-01-2016, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dammage79

Do give me crap about how the rest of the world views this award. I'm basing my opinion on the fact that few people who actually do hand out the hardware agree with your assessment.

Nik Lidstrom was the king of the Norris for a reason, because he was the best all around D man in the game during his time. I don't disagree with your take on things but I don't agree with it all either. D men who have the offensive skill that Karlsson doe deserves just as much recognition for their efforts as well.

I agree. The trouble is that they get more recognition. That's why we are advocating that there should be a new trophy awarded for the best all round defensemen.

It sickens me that Karlsson has 2 Norris Trophies, PK Subban has 1 Norris Trophy while Weber and Doughty have 0.

Enoch Root · 03-01-2016, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Yeah, and I have an evidence-based argument that I can express for my view on Kris Russell as a massively overrated player. It's not like I'm just saying "I've watched hockey for a long time and trust me, he's bad at it".

Although, that too.

There you go again.

You're being equally as pig-headed and you just can't see it.

Your evidence-based argument is deeply flawed and has shown nothing but wildly inconsistent results with respect to actually being able to analyze players on any kind of consistent basis.

Yet whenever someone disagrees with what the numbers say, you and your army of AS warriors take personal offence.

My numbers are right and all the GMs are idiots!

Street Pharmacist · 03-01-2016, 03:59 PM

Why do you assume it's one or the other?