Ontario govt. announce free post-secondary tuition for families making under $50k

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Slava

Close. Statscan says its about 14% that have bachelors degrees in Canada from what I saw: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/12-581-...00/edu-eng.htm

Well yeah, because there are a lot of people over 55 in Canada who grew up when hardly anyone got a degree. For 30 year-olds, it's more like 30 per cent.

[DiracSpike]

I'd be so mad if I lived in Ontario now holy crap. Maybe Wynn knows she's toast and now she's just trolling.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by chemgear

Wait, where have I heard this before?

"The minister said the new system will be more accessible but cost taxpayers roughly the same amount."

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Well yeah, because there are a lot of people over 55 in Canada who grew up when hardly anyone got a degree. For 30 year-olds, it's more like 30 per cent.

That could be the case, but that's all the more reason that this is an important policy. If post-secondary education is basically required for good jobs at this point, then we should try to remove these barriers for the lower income families.

[Hammertime]

For those that are planning to retire right around when their kids are at university age.. this could be quite lucrative.

Might plan on moving to Ontario in 18 years.

[Johnny199r]

I remember in law school, lots of my classmates had the option to live at home with their parents in the city (Halifax), but chose to take big loans and get an apartment by campus. Those big loans enabled them to receive needs based scholarships for the law school that they wouldn't have been entitled to if they lived with mom and dad and made the fifteen minute commute every day.

I'm interested in how Ontario will calculate family income. It's also interesting considering not many families pay their kids university tuition compared to the U.S

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Weitz

So you get subsidized more if you get a degree that pays less?

Doesn't seem fair to me. Everyone or no one (assuming we are sticking to the $50k/year).

I was thinking some combination of Salary vs type of degree with incentivization for public service.

But either way I think loan forgiveness is a much better system free education.

One thing to note is that tuition covers roughly 1/3rd of the cost if I remember correctly. And you get 25% of your tuition back in tax breaks plus about that about again in living alliance tax breaks.

So under the current system the government pays roughly 83% of the costs plus the student loan program has some grant forgiveness built in (or at least it used to)

Other things we should do is get the best teaching professors to broad cast national classes with reddit style AMAs and the tutorials run by grad students. All of first year could be replaced with this style of education.

[Violator]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I take it that we still don't care about plumbers or carpenters or sparkies, even though we need those skills way more than university grads.

Trades training is already heavily subsided by the government

Originally Posted by blankall

Bingo.

Nothing wrong with cheap school. But it does no good to anyone to have unlimited amounts of liberal arts majors.

In Nordic countries that have free tuition, they strictly control how many spots are available in each program based on labor needs. Many even divert kids in high schools towards trade related programs.

They already have similar programs like that in alberta its called RAP
https://tradesecrets.alberta.ca/lear...eship-program/

Originally Posted by Weitz

Can't trades people claim EI while in school? I know my friends were always making money while going to school.

Your friends were most likely laid off in order to go to school thus why they had money.When they are working for an employer they sign up for school and tell the boss what dates they are going to school so when that date comes up they are given a layoff for school then when you go to SAIT or were ever they are going.they are then given a code by the school in order to get E.I. but E.I. already knows its only temporary.

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think you could design a much better system to subsidize undergraduate education based on 5 years later income.

So you give people student loans, then you have a loan forgiveness scheme based on their future income with some sort of waiting to degrees in need.

I've advocated this for years. Make student loan payments 100% deductable on your Provincial taxes. You get a loan, finish your degree, and stay in Province to work then there is some relief. Move away after to work somewhere too bad for you, the provincial taxpayers aren't going to subsidize your education.

At least put some responsibility on the students and hold them somewhat accountable if they do not hold up their end of the bargain.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Lubicon

I've advocated this for years. Make student loan payments 100% deductable on your Provincial taxes. You get a loan, finish your degree, and stay in Province to work then there is some relief. Move away after to work somewhere too bad for you, the provincial taxpayers aren't going to subsidize your education.

That's what the NWT does to keep young people in the province. For every three years you go primary school in the territory, you get subsidized for a year of post-secondary. But you only get that deduction after you've spent a number of years (5?) working in the NWT after graduation.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I take it that we still don't care about plumbers or carpenters or sparkies, even though we need those skills way more than university grads.

My tuition in Alberta was free for trade school. The government subsidizes 75% of the cost, the remainder was paid by me but I was reimbursed by my company's insurer. Also $4000 in grants over the 4 intakes of schooling ($1000 for first and second year, $2000 for fourth). You also collect EI while in school, apprentices are well looked after.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Violator

Trades training is already heavily subsided by the government



They already have similar programs like that in alberta its called RAP
https://tradesecrets.alberta.ca/lear...eship-program/


.

A few incentives won't cut it. The education program as a while needs to be centrally controlled or privatized. Canada is one of the only countries in the world where you can take a cheap and useless degree, but the country still needs to import skilled workers from elsewhere.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by blankall

A few incentives won't cut it. The education program as a while needs to be centrally controlled or privatized. Canada is one of the only countries in the world where you can take a cheap and useless degree, but the country still needs to import skilled workers from elsewhere.

You realise that the skilled workers we were luring away from elsewhere aren't just tradespeople though, right? When things were really booming here we were bringing in engineers of all types (mechanical, chemical, electrical, etc.), not mention all kinds of finance and other professionals. I think that trades are critically important, but the phrase "skilled workers" cuts a wide swath.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

My tuition in Alberta was free for trade school. The government subsidizes 75% of the cost, the remainder was paid by me but I was reimbursed by my company's insurer. Also $4000 in grants over the 4 intakes of schooling ($1000 for first and second year, $2000 for fourth). You also collect EI while in school, apprentices are well looked after.

I don't think that is the case in BC, and, more to the point, in BC we have one trade school, BCIT, as opposed to 6 universities, now granted there are other ways to get your apprentice done but as a society here and elsewhere we are massively committed to getting everyone to take a degree but barely interested in getting kids into trades.

[peter12]

Decent grad students tend to get full-funding in exchange for nominal TA work. I didn't pay a dime for my masters. The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The problem is a degree shouldn't be expected for most jobs, by pumping thirty or forty percent of our population through university we have effectively devalued the Bachelors down to the level of grade twelve twenty years ago, I'm a youth worker, you used to, (and I did) enter the field with high school and taking the crappy shifts, weekends or overnights, you don't need a degree nor can a degree teach you how to handle a suicidal kid.

Today you need a BSw to earn 19 bucks an hour at best in a group home, it's a rip off, we have effectively forced kids to pay fourth of fifty thousand to get the equivalent of grade twelve.

This is precisely my view. I don't understand the public policy underlying this. It seems like just rank idealism with no practical rationale.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I don't think that is the case in BC, and, more to the point, in BC we have one trade school, BCIT, as opposed to 6 universities, now granted there are other ways to get your apprentice done but as a society here and elsewhere we are massively committed to getting everyone to take a degree but barely interested in getting kids into trades.

Here in Calgary, we have Mount Royal University. When it was a college, it provided thousands of students a year with practical 2-year diploma programs that led directly to jobs. Ten years ago, after decades of lobbying by the college, it was granted university status. Now all those programs take four years and cost twice the money to complete. And the graduates are no better prepared for the job market than the ones who graduated when they were diploma programs.

So who were the winners? Not students. Not their parents. Not employers. The only winners were college administrators and instructors.

The post-secondary education system is ripe for disruption. All it will take is a some high-profile employers to recognize the degrees of alternative-delivery schools, and the whole rotten edifice of traditional university will crumble.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I don't think that is the case in BC, and, more to the point, in BC we have one trade school, BCIT, as opposed to 6 universities, now granted there are other ways to get your apprentice done but as a society here and elsewhere we are massively committed to getting everyone to take a degree but barely interested in getting kids into trades.

Oh for sure, accessibility is much more difficult for trade schools. For every SAIT or BCIT it seems like there's 10 St Mary's or Camosun Colleges.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Lubicon

I've advocated this for years. Make student loan payments 100% deductable on your Provincial taxes. You get a loan, finish your degree, and stay in Province to work then there is some relief. Move away after to work somewhere too bad for you, the provincial taxpayers aren't going to subsidize your education.

At least put some responsibility on the students and hold them somewhat accountable if they do not hold up their end of the bargain.

Around 5 years ago Saskatchewan had a student loan relief program in place. My brother was graduating from the UofS and they offered to wipe out his student loan over 5 years if he stayed in the province to work. I think they offered 10% the first year, 20% the next two and 25% the final two years.

My brother didn't stick around for the program and came back to Alberta.

[speede5]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Around 5 years ago Saskatchewan had a student loan relief program in place. My brother was graduating from the UofS and they offered to wipe out his student loan over 5 years if he stayed in the province to work. I think they offered 10% the first year, 20% the next two and 25% the final two years.

My brother didn't stick around for the program and came back to Alberta.

Only certain programs got this offer, last I saw was nurses. It's not across the board.