Know what else has 'regressed' this year?

[jlh2640]

Lets be honest he probably isnt having as much fun this year so far.

[JohnnyB]

I don't think any of the really big factors in this year's results are due to Hartley's coaching. As far as I can see it's basically:

1. Goalie monstrosity to start season
2. Hudler being garbage this year
3. Brodie out, Gio out of form and Hamilton unfamiliar with team to start year
4. A few older players hanging around and taking up space who should be moved

At a leadership level, I think this season hangs on Treliving. Hartley and Gio are doing what they should and the factors that put the team so low aren't factors that they make the decisions on.

[Illuminaughty]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

The Blackhawks are also one of the smallest and have some of the best possession stats.

The Coyotes are also one of the biggest and have some of the worst possession stats.

I just don't like blaming size.

Yeah well having an elite two way future Hall of Fame centre, who just also happens to be insanely clutch and great on face-offs makes a huge difference.

[Benched]

Originally Posted by sa226

While I actually do believe you. You shouldn't be so naive.

I guess.

1st ever thread I've created

[curves2000]

One thing that hasn't been said is the atmosphere around the Dome probably isn't as light as it was last season.

If anyone remembers any of the media coverage before the start of the season it was all about "preventing regression" there was SOOOOOOO much of that talk coming from coaching staff, management and the media that I can't imagine how it must have been in he room for the players.

I am not advocating that we shouldn't be fighting for a playoff spot but the fact of the matter is that our biggest contributors on this team are mostly very very young players who are learning to be NHL regulars. Maybe the pressure didn't help at the beginning but I suspect the pressure to win and get into a playoff spot started with ownership.

The Flames ownership group is made owners who have made their fortunes in the energy industry, this business is suffering tremendously at the moment. Given the reduced attendance, merchandise and concession sales that has been occurring at the Dome along with the vastly increased cost of player and coaching expenses, travel costs and per diem expenses, its no wonder that ownership is hammering down most likely to get into a playoff spot.

I know I hear a lot about specific players and potential trades and all these hypothetical scenarios of "retained salary" Given how Mr. Murrary Edwards runs his energy companies (Canadian Natural Resources and Ensign Energy Services) they have I believe been two of the few companies that have not yet had mass layoffs in this downturn. I know for a fact that at CNQ they have given the vast majority of their staff a 10% salary cut. I truly believe this man's personal mantra from building these businesses is "if you don't work for me, I am not paying you" I doubt he was going to waste tens of millions of dollars on severances packages for employee's who aren't in his office daily.

Some owners are just different in their line of thinking. If you look at the Flyers they seem to retain salary and issue both compliance buyouts and regular buyouts to everybody under the sun just in order to get out of salary cap hell.

I just think the pressure all around the Dome has been kicked up a few degree's for both monetary reasons and increased expectations. Some fans may choose to disagree with me which is fine. Its easy to say "long term planning" or "we are still rebuilding" etc when it comes to landing playoff dates when its not YOUR multi million dollar business that is going to suffer the financial consequences.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by curves2000

One thing that hasn't been said is the atmosphere around the Dome probably isn't as light as it was last season.

If anyone remembers any of the media coverage before the start of the season it was all about "preventing regression" there was SOOOOOOO much of that talk coming from coaching staff, management and the media that I can't imagine how it must have been in he room for the players.

I am not advocating that we shouldn't be fighting for a playoff spot but the fact of the matter is that our biggest contributors on this team are mostly very very young players who are learning to be NHL regulars. Maybe the pressure didn't help at the beginning but I suspect the pressure to win and get into a playoff spot started with ownership.

The Flames ownership group is made owners who have made their fortunes in the energy industry, this business is suffering tremendously at the moment. Given the reduced attendance, merchandise and concession sales that has been occurring at the Dome along with the vastly increased cost of player and coaching expenses, travel costs and per diem expenses, its no wonder that ownership is hammering down most likely to get into a playoff spot.

I know I hear a lot about specific players and potential trades and all these hypothetical scenarios of "retained salary" Given how Mr. Murrary Edwards runs his energy companies (Canadian Natural Resources and Ensign Energy Services) they have I believe been two of the few companies that have not yet had mass layoffs in this downturn. I know for a fact that at CNQ they have given the vast majority of their staff a 10% salary cut. I truly believe this man's personal mantra from building these businesses is "if you don't work for me, I am not paying you" I doubt he was going to waste tens of millions of dollars on severances packages for employee's who aren't in his office daily.

Some owners are just different in their line of thinking. If you look at the Flyers they seem to retain salary and issue both compliance buyouts and regular buyouts to everybody under the sun just in order to get out of salary cap hell.

I just think the pressure all around the Dome has been kicked up a few degree's for both monetary reasons and increased expectations. Some fans may choose to disagree with me which is fine. Its easy to say "long term planning" or "we are still rebuilding" etc when it comes to landing playoff dates when its not YOUR multi million dollar business that is going to suffer the financial consequences.

Not sure what there is to disagree with when I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you implying Murray Edwards is demanding playoffs at all costs? Because if so, well it's possible. Flames ownership does have a history of doing this, but they backed off under Feaster. He will be asking why the team spent more on payroll to be less competitive.

[MarkGio]

CNRL is a lot different than hockey. CNRL dumps lots of money into things. Have you ever worked one of these sites. Sub trades spend days in orientation before coming on site, then spend hours in meetings, permitting, and paperwork without doing any work.

Lots of people are getting paid without doing any actual work

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by saillias

Not sure what there is to disagree with when I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you implying Murray Edwards is demanding playoffs at all costs? Because if so, well it's possible. Flames ownership does have a history of doing this, but they backed off under Feaster. He will be asking why the team spent more on payroll to be less competitive.

I don't think they backed off

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by saillias

Not sure what there is to disagree with when I'm not sure what you're saying...

If curves2000 is saying that the downturn in the owners' business interests have suddenly resulted in an increased urgency and pressure upon the team admin. to make the playoffs, then I definitely disagree.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I know I hear a lot about specific players and potential trades and all these hypothetical scenarios of "retained salary" Given how Mr. Murrary Edwards runs his energy companies (Canadian Natural Resources and Ensign Energy Services) they have I believe been two of the few companies that have not yet had mass layoffs in this downturn. I know for a fact that at CNQ they have given the vast majority of their staff a 10% salary cut. I truly believe this man's personal mantra from building these businesses is "if you don't work for me, I am not paying you" I doubt he was going to waste tens of millions of dollars on severances packages for employee's who aren't in his office daily.

The Kotalik situation also points towards that.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

The Kotalik situation also points towards that.

Same with the Hagman situation... they eventually went down that road, but I remember (Peter Mahr?) saying while the team is willing to spend to the cap, they did not believe in paying players to play for someone else or not to be playing at all.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by saillias

Bingo. When a coach of any team lasts that long and is out of playoff contention it's fair to wonder if it's time for a change. Now longer tenured than Brent or Darryl and counting.

Okay yeah he is in year 4. But when year 1 was before the rebuild started you have to lengthen that rope some because it's not like he came in after it began and we're failing at the rebuild.

I think most of us expected the team to be bad for 3-4 years after Iginla was traded (this year is year 3), so no one should be shocked that we are not a very good team. The problem lies in the fact the Flames overachieved last year, because of that fan expectations increased significantly when they probably shouldn't have.

IMO the soonest we should talk about getting rid of Hartley is next season when we should be starting to trend upwards.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by nik-

People will always use the Jack Adams award to deflect criticism from Hartley. Lets be honest here, he's right back to where he was originally when he coached a team with expectations. Underperforming.

Your right.

Hartley also has a Stanley Cup, Calder cup and Swiss championship.

He lead the laval titains to a memorial cup game.

He also lead the Cornwall Aces to two division titles. The bears to 4 consecutive playoffs. He lead Colorado to their first division title and 4 consecutive conference finals. Hartley had a rough season in Atlanta due to the death of Snyder, losing Heatley and both goalies to injusry but only missed the playoffs by 2 points. He led the Franchise to their first playoffs and division title.

He lead the Flames to their first 2nd round appearance in 12 years. In only his third year as coach and completely changed the culture in the locker room.

Hartley has taken over YOUNG ####ty teams and made them good( exception being Colorado).


Hartley is a good coach and is only working with what he has. You can see flashes of brilliance from the top young guys but the supporting cast is just not there yet.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

IMO the soonest we should talk about getting rid of Hartley is next season when we should be starting to trend upwards.

IMO Hartley should be evaluated based on whether the youth (Ferland/Bennett/Gaudreau/Monahan/Hamilton/Kulak etc) stagnates or properly develop into a team that can control the play consistently. Whether we make the playoffs or not is a volatile benchmark.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by nik-

Perhaps, but lets step away from ledge. This is his fourth year here. Hardly a carousel.

3rd full year . The lockout season as a whole was a joke. It also saw some major trastitions for the organization.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

The problem with benching Wideman is it diminishes his already slim trade value. On the one hand I think he absolutely deserves to be benched and that both Smid and Engelland have played well enough to deserve a regular spot. On the other hand you don't wanna tank his value in case some team is crazy enough to trade for him.

I hate this line of thinking. It's literally the worst reason to not sit an underperforming player. Who gives a f***? You're trying to win a game. Every single GM in the league knows exactly what Dennis Wideman is. Having him out there crapping the bed every night is definitely not helping.

I don't think the team goes as Wideman goes, but that's all the more reason to try and get a message to him that its not good enough right now. Being great last season does not give him a pass this year. Same goes for Russell and Hudler.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

If curves2000 is saying that the downturn in the owners' business interests have suddenly resulted in an increased urgency and pressure upon the team admin. to make the playoffs, then I definitely disagree.

I also disagree.

If the Flames are losing $10M over the course of one season because they don't make the playoffs (and attendance is down etc), this ownership group isn't going to be like "sell the future to make the playoffs now, we're losing too much money!".

Edwards' market value in CNRL fluctuated by around $50M....last week. And that's just one of his businesses and that's just one owner.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I hate this line of thinking. It's literally the worst reason to not sit an underperforming player. Who gives a f***? You're trying to win a game. Every single GM in the league knows exactly what Dennis Wideman is. Having him out there crapping the bed every night is definitely not helping.

I don't think the team goes as Wideman goes, but that's all the more reason to try and get a message to him that its not good enough right now. Being great last season does not give him a pass this year. Same goes for Russell and Hudler.

Our playoff chances are minuscule atm. I don't think benching or not benching Wideman is going to significantly alter them.

This is how the next month will go and it will annoy some people. We will continue to play our veterans, some of whom more heavily than they deserve. Near the deadline likely a few vets will be on the way out. Post deadline we will call up a few youngsters and then you'll see the ice time patterns begin to change.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by Benched

I guess.

1st ever thread I've created

The first time isn't typically as good as expectations. Thread creation does get much better with experience.

[polak]

To the people defending Hartley and saying that the defensive, offensive and goaltending issues aren't his fault and that is on the players.... What is a coach responsible for exactly? If he's not responsible for the offense, defense or goaltending then what's Hartley's purpose?

Seems like if you take away those struggles, all he has done is developed a system that is easily defended against by putting bodies in the neutral zone and the league worst special teams...

I can't think of anything positive that he is contributing to this team at this point. Even his track record with our young players is hit and miss.