Fights down to just 0.24 per game

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by MattyC

This has always bothered me. It's not accepted. There's a penalty for it. It is against the rules.

Whether or not the penalty is enough to deter it is kind of a different debate (it's not, especially for people instigating after clean checks).

Culturally accepted by fans and players? Yes. Against the rules? Yes.

I liken it to touch down dances in football. Are they allowed? No. Do they happen? Yes and are acceptable by the players and the fans, but not the league rules.

Yes fighting is accepted or the NHL end of story. If it wasn't accepted it would be like football where fighting results in an automatic ejections and possibly fine/suspension.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Itse

I'm not sure if there are threads that are more copies of each other than these fighting threads. The people might change, but the arguments are exactly the same.

The problem has been for a long time now that the claims made on both sides of the discussion have never been properly tested. I had wondered not that long ago that with what seems to me to be an increasing distaste for fighting among hockey fans and observers that it would be accompanied by an appetite for an actual study. I now think that fighting in hockey may just fade into obscurity without really knowing one way or the other. However, I suspect that as fighting disappears and as hockey continues, people will discover by their own passive acceptance that there was not really a valid point to fighting in hockey for a long time, if ever.

Originally Posted by Itse

It would be nice if we had yearly polls on this, so we could track the development of fan sentiment over time. Unfortunately it's too late to start now.

Is it too late? I know a lot has changed in the past decade, or even less, but it might still be useful to track opinions on this.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Itse

I'm not sure if there are threads that are more copies of each other than these fighting threads. The people might change, but the arguments are exactly the same.

It would be nice if we had yearly polls on this, so we could track the development of fan sentiment over time. Unfortunately it's too late to start now.

(I'm in the "hockey is better, safer and more entertaining without fights" camp.)

The arguments may be the same but the numbers show that the people that don't agree with fighting are slowly starting to see their arguments supported by the fact there's less and less of it. I'm fairly positive in the not to distant future it will be gone entirely.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The arguments may be the same but the numbers show that the people that don't agree with fighting are slowly starting to see their arguments supported by the fact there's less and less of it. I'm fairly positive in the not to distant future it will be gone entirely.

I think fighting will still sometimes happen (prob. less frequently), but the acceptance/glorification of it will be gone (hopefully).

[Coach]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

It is accepted. If it wasn't accepted the repercussions of fighting would be greater. Thrown out of the game and banned from the next.

The NHL accepts fighting. All the talk about "the code" further supports that fighting is accepted. If it wasn't accepted there wouldn't be a "code" to fighting in the game.

This is exactly my point though. So many people against fighting cry about how/why the NHL allows this. They don't. It's against the rules. As I said in my original post, whether or not the punishments that currently exist are enough to deter it (and I said in my post that it's not) is a different story. The NHLPA has a say in rule changes, if they didn't this would have likely changed a long time ago.

The players accept it by participating in it regardless of the rules, the teams accept it by employing people purely for that purpose (and we are seeing the effect of speeding up the game to deter this right now), adn the fans accept it by mostly claiming it to be an entertaining part of the game, particularly in US markets. But the NHL, as a league, does not. And have been actively fighting to get at least the frequency dropped for a while.

IMO, they should be giving more discretion for the on-ice refs. They hear what people are saying, are in the tensions of the game, and know the players well enough that I trust they can make a judgment call on instigation (particularly on those following clean checks, which is my biggest pet peeve). If you instigate, your gone and the opposing player forced to protect themselves receives nothing and team gets a 5 min PP. If it's deemed to be "staged" (mostly fights right at faceoffs) both players are gone.

[GirlySports]

I think hockey has to stop the argument that it's THE tough sport and players go through a lot and cannot control themselves and must fight it out. And also mock other sports for being wussy.

When you watch other sports they are just as tough and players don't have to police themselves.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

You called it a fact. The onus is upon you to provide proof for that. If you are unable or unwilling, then your opinion about the positive benefits of fighting in hockey remains just that—your opinion. And in this instance, based upon what you have posted in this thread, it appears that your opinion is anecdotal.

Feel free to correct me on anything I have said up to this point.

OK first correction is in relation to the statement below:

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Facts are established on the basis of evidence. I look forward to seeing the iron clad case that you have built to show the correlation between fighting and dangerous plays in hockey.

I don't think fighting reduces dangerous plays in hockey, especially with the instigator rule. I agree with a poster who said suspensions, fines and league crackdown is the way to reduce those.

I do believe that fighting can reduce slashing, cross checking and to an extent spearing. I think this is do to 2 main things a. fighting allows guys to release anger and "get back at guys" when this is not there for them some resort to the alternative using their sticks and b. rats have free rain to be chippy as they want without any recourse. The second part could be true in an NHL with instigator league as well.

You are right I have based this on watching different leagues that do and don't have fighting. That is more than enough fact for me. If it isn't good enough for you that's fine I don't really care.

I would say overall for me the positive benefits of fighting is that I enjoy it. I also don't see much, if any downside, outside of the potential for teams to have goons on their roster which I think makes them weaker, so it could be a positive if everyone other than the Flames take that approach.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by MattyC

This is exactly my point though. So many people against fighting cry about how/why the NHL allows this. They don't. It's against the rules. As I said in my original post, whether or not the punishments that currently exist are enough to deter it (and I said in my post that it's not) is a different story. The NHLPA has a say in rule changes, if they didn't this would have likely changed a long time ago.

The players accept it by participating in it regardless of the rules, the teams accept it by employing people purely for that purpose (and we are seeing the effect of speeding up the game to deter this right now), adn the fans accept it by mostly claiming it to be an entertaining part of the game, particularly in US markets. But the NHL, as a league, does not. And have been actively fighting to get at least the frequency dropped for a while.

IMO, they should be giving more discretion for the on-ice refs. They hear what people are saying, are in the tensions of the game, and know the players well enough that I trust they can make a judgment call on instigation (particularly on those following clean checks, which is my biggest pet peeve). If you instigate, your gone and the opposing player forced to protect themselves receives nothing and team gets a 5 min PP. If it's deemed to be "staged" (mostly fights right at faceoffs) both players are gone.

I think the refs should be mic'd up. It doesn't have to be broadcast (but at times that would be awesome).

The effort by the league to get it out of the game, IMO, has been piss poor. While they have rules against it, they are soft. If the league wanted it out, they could try to bring in rules like: fight and you are gone for the game, second fight and it is the game and next game, etc.

To put it a better way the NHL has a tacit acceptance of fighting.

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by MattyC

This is exactly my point though. So many people against fighting cry about how/why the NHL allows this. They don't. It's against the rules.

Nothing is that black and white though. Doing 5-10 over on the highway is technically against the rules too, but I don't think anyone who drives would say it's not allowed.

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I think the refs should be mic'd up. It doesn't have to be broadcast (but at times that would be awesome)

Honestly I'd prefer nothing but on-ice noise/chatter more often than not.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by kunkstyle

Honestly I'd prefer nothing but on-ice noise/chatter more often than not.

Rugby mic's the refs and it is great to listen to.


I agree, on-ice noise/chatter would be great. Need to be fast on the "beep" button.

[shogged]

I've always supported fighting in the NHL and I think this number is great. Translates to what, a fight every 4 games? And they achieved it without banning fighting entirely. Good stuff.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by kunkstyle

Honestly I'd prefer nothing but on-ice noise/chatter more often than not.

Since the XFL, I always hoped for this with the NHL.

Same feed, same PBP guys... just a special channel that has mics at ice level so you can hear it. The refs, the bench chatter the crease chirping. Would have to be adults only, but I would have loved it.

Now, it can just be a audio feed on Game Center. I want it!

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Rugby mic's the refs and it is great to listen to.


I agree, on-ice noise/chatter would be great. Need to be fast on the "beep" button.

There is always a delay.

Or ban swearing

[Conroy4Mayor]

Originally Posted by MattyC

This has always bothered me. It's not accepted. There's a penalty for it. It is against the rules.

Whether or not the penalty is enough to deter it is kind of a different debate (it's not, especially for people instigating after clean checks).

Culturally accepted by fans and players? Yes. Against the rules? Yes.

I liken it to touch down dances in football. Are they allowed? No. Do they happen? Yes and are acceptable by the players and the fans, but not the league rules.

Is it truly a penalty if it affects both teams equally? It's just a 5 minute rest for those guys. The (hockey) game itself is not impacted.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

There is always a delay.

Or ban swearing

#### you, you ####ing ####

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by adc

I don't think fighting reduces dangerous plays in hockey, especially with the instigator rule. I agree with a poster who said suspensions, fines and league crackdown is the way to reduce those.

On this we agree.

Originally Posted by adc

I do believe that fighting can reduce slashing, cross checking and to an extent spearing. I think this is do to 2 main things a. fighting allows guys to release anger and "get back at guys" when this is not there for them some resort to the alternative using their sticks.

As Girly Sports has already pointed out, there is no reason to think that grown men cannot learn how to control their emotions within a controlled context like a hockey game. There are plenty of other team sports in which players manage quite well to handle the intensity of in-game action without resorting to fights.

Originally Posted by adc

b. rats have free rain to be chippy as they want without any recourse. The second part could be true in an NHL with instigator league as well.

But there has always been "chippy" play in hockey. There was chippiness in the original six league. There was chippiness in the first era of expansion, and in the pre-instigator era. There has been chippiness since the instigator was introduced, and I am certain it will continue even with the elimination of fighting, and until stricter measures are introduced in an attempt to eliminate it.

I have often heard this argument in the past, and I find it unconvincing because any level of fighting, and all manner of regulations that pertain to fighting have made no perceivable difference one way or the other. I suspect that this is a red herring, and that there really is no correlation between fighting in hockey and dirty play.

Originally Posted by adc

I would say overall for me the positive benefits of fighting is that I enjoy it. I also don't see much, if any downside, outside of the potential for teams to have goons on their roster which I think makes them weaker, so it could be a positive if everyone other than the Flames take that approach.

This is pretty much what it amounts to: fans enjoy fights. But I would counter that the downside is on the contrary rather steep. Mounting evidence suggests that regular participation in fighting is incredibly dangerous. I am personally embarrassed about the collective appetite for blood sports in our modern culture, and look forward to the day when we might overcome our tribal instincts to relish in the destruction of people's long-term well being.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Fighting is dumb and serves no purpose. Within 5 years it'll be entirely gone. Good.

Hopefully not entirely gone - just rare enough that it's something you talk about rather than an everyday ho hum sort of thing. An event, like a penalty shot or a goal of the year candidate. This assumes that it doesn't happen unless there's a damned good reason.

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I agree, on-ice noise/chatter would be great. Need to be fast on the "beep" button.

Leave it all in. Make it a PPV channel/subscription based and don't censor it.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by kunkstyle

Leave it all in. Make it a PPV channel/subscription based and don't censor it.

Me likey