What's wrong with the Flames?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Sainters7

I still very much see this as a rebuilding team. That's basically what they've looked like to this point.

Hiller - 33
Ramo - 29
Engelland - 33
Giordano - 32
Wideman - 32
Smid - 29
Russell - 28
Hudler - 31
Stajan - 31
Jones - 31
Raymond - 30
Bollig - 28
Frolik - 27
Backlund - 26

This team is way too old and highly paid to use `rebuilding` as an excuse. The Oilers are the youngest team in the West and beat the Flames down hard. The Lightning are the youngest team in the NHL and were two wins from a championship.

I could take rebuilding as an excuse if Granlund were in the top 6, if Ortio were starting, etc. But this is a veteran team. Monahan being young isn`t an excuse.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

That is a bold statement and you might be right about how good he is. Personally, I'm not quite there yet.

But even so, a team missing its best player should not go from good to awful. if so, that team is not constructed very well.

Pick any team that loses its best player who is on the ice for 25 minutes every game and they will also be in big trouble...

LA without Doughty, Nashville without Weber, Montreal w/o Subban....

The Flames did great without Gio, but it turns out Brodie was the lead dog all along.

Gio plays as well as his D Partner..... became top-4 with Sarich, ok with Bouwmeester, Great with Brodie and now again barely adequate top-4 with Hamilton.

The Flames should put Hamilton with Engelland see what happens. That will be the pairing when Brodie comes back.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Hiller - 33
Ramo - 29
Engelland - 33
Giordano - 32
Wideman - 32
Smid - 29
Russell - 28
Stajan - 31
Jones - 31
Raymond - 30
Bollig - 28
Frolik - 27
Backlund - 26

This team is way too old and highly paid to use `rebuilding` as an excuse. The Oilers are the youngest team in the West and beat the Flames down hard. The Lightning are the youngest team in the NHL and were two wins from a championship.

Somehow I don't think the team as it sits right now is Brad's vision for the finished product (if there is such a thing).

Rebuilding, retooling, tearing down, building up, blah, blah, blah...

Kind of getting sick of terms like these, It's all just semantics. The Flames are going to try to get better regardless of the perception that exists that they are done the rebuild.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Realtor 1

The Gio/Hamilton pairing should be an option.
It makes no sense to me, Gio and Brodie MUST be put together when Brodie is healthy. Its tried tested and proven.
Why not start playing around with Hamilton. Perhaps a Hamilton Kulak pairing could be impressive. Some great size, both young, both new (ish) and both should be in the long term plans.
D to D passes are hitting skates where as last year they were right on the tape allowing a much quicker transition out. Hell, Brodie could be looking up ice while Gio was dishing him the puck ready to send it to his outlet guy the moment it hit his tape. As small as it seems, that extra 2 second delay on the breakout allows the other team to get set on defense and eliminate those great rushes we had last year.

Kulak, as a player breaking in, has shown absolutely no inclination to bump into someone.

[ricardodw]

the option left off is not hungry.....

When Hartley hollers jump.... last year the answer was "how high?" This year the answer is "you talking to me?"

So many huge contracts signed in this off season.

went from a cap floor team to a cap team. The majority of Flames are financial secure for the rest of their life. last year the only guys moving into that category were Engelland and Raymond .

[DomeFoam]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It's not just the fact that Brodie is injured; it is how much that injury has affected the whole lineup. And yes, this is dramatically different than when the Flames lost Giordano, because it was not such a big adjustment for other players to shift up and provide cover in the springtime.

Giordano is still getting up to speed, and 22-year-old Dougie Hamilton is making adjustments to a new team in a new conference, AND required now to play on the top pairing with said returning player. This is an ENORMOUS mitigating factor, and all a result of Brodie's injury.

This is complete BS. This team is playing like hot garbage, a healthy TJ Brodie doesn't change that because it seems to me this sitting back, getting ####kicked like we're the oilers attitude is pretty contagious throughout the dressing room right now. Saying its Brodies absence is a complete cop out from larger issues

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Somehow I don't think the team as it sits right now is Brad's vision for the finished product (if there is such a thing).

Rebuilding, retooling, tearing down, building up, blah, blah, blah...

Kind of getting sick of terms like these, It's all just semantics. The Flames are going to try to get better regardless of the perception that exists that they are done the rebuild.

It`s not semantics. The reality is this: 30 teams in the league could claim they are rebuilding. What separates Calgary from a team like the Ducks? We have a few young players in our forwards group? Well they have Cam Fowler, Hampus Lindholm, Simon Despres, and Sami Vatanen in their defense group. Are the Ducks rebuilding? What separates Calgary from the Winnipeg Jets, who have Ehlers, Petan, Scheifele, Trouba? There's just nothing that gives the Flames special status for youth or inexperience. If rebuilding just means a lack of talent, then why are the Flames up against the cap?

Is the team right now a finished product? No, neither are the 29 other teams. If you want to use rebuilding as an excuse then you need to have young players in the meat of the lineup making mistakes. Healthy scratching Granlund every other game is not what a rebuilding team does, it's more what a perennial playoff team up against the cap might do though.

Yes the Flames were definitely rebuilding after they shipped off Tanguay, Iginla, Bouwmeester. But right now there's no clear indication of such. They're a team with a pretty set-in-stone 20 man roster.

[DoubleF]

I don't feel the Flames are playing the same as last year. If anything it looks like they're playing a different style than before. Not worried, but hope they fine tune and fix a few things.

- Gio and Hamilton pairing doesn't look like it's yielding chemistry. Not sure if it's Hamilton not knowing the system or just poor styles to pair. Add in fact that Gio seems very off, is it the timing that's off? No synergy, both players seem ineffective. Split ASAP please.
- Russell seems like he's pinching more. Unfortunately, it often ends up with the puck going the wrong way, and Wideman not able to catch the faster forwards. Russel needs to stay back as the stay at home D rather than pretend to be Brodie.
- Bottom forwards keep holding the puck longer and then for some unknown reason, try to skate through 3-4 players or ends up getting trapped while being in the O-Zone on his own. Last year, we dumped the puck and changed. Now, we're tiring ourselves out. can't tell if this is a change to increase possession stats, but it's definitely something I don't remember with last year.
- Positioning of players are horrid. They're either in the wrong places or seems to at time get in each other's way. That's super weird.
- Dangerous shots are plentiful. Positioning to eliminate these are really lacking.
- No issues with Ramo and Hiller so far, but they are overcompensating IMO which increases odds of dangerous shots.
- Kulak isn't bad, but is lacking a split second "aggression" I feel like he sometimes gets ready to skate back even if he has successfully poked the puck back to his teammate. Not worried.
- Flames less physical other than Ferland? They fight, sure, but Bouma for instance isn't mowing people down like I remember. Worried he's trying to change to skill from a grinder role.
- We aren't holding the blue line like we did before. Sometimes it looks like 3 guys on O and 2 dudes playing around in the neutral zone. Is this an issue due to the changes or is there some dumb reason the D aren't in as close on the blue line?

I am actually very curious to know if Hartley has changed the system and the whole team is still learning it. A lot of the way we play in the O-Zone for sure looks very different. The D-Zone looks very impatient rather than patiently keeping teams on the perimeter and blocking shots like last season.

I missed the last two games though. Not sure if my observations accurate.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Our status as a cap max team is overblown. Remove all the bad contracts and we are closer to a cap min team.

I realize that's not how it works but good teams don't have so much money tied up in average players.

The problem isn't the age of the core players or what they make. The problem is the dead weight. Remove these guys over time and replace them with smarter signings and suddenly we are look alot better.

I don't think of it as rebuilding, more like weeding the garden. The fact that there are still a lot of weeds means we aren't where we need to be and can't be compared to the other, nicer gardens yet.

I think rebuilding is when you're still looking for your core guys.

[mikeecho]

I voted for effort.

When a team makes the playoffs for the first time in a long time, they see how different the games are compared to the regular season. Faster, more physical and a lot more intense.

On the heels of a grinding season where the team played through a lot of injuries, blocked an insane amount of shots, etc... I think that experience tends to sit with some players.

When they go back to the regular season, some players IMHO sub consciously try to save something for the playoffs and so you see less physicality, less inclination to get in front of shots, etc... Add a bunch of early injuries to key players and I think some guys are becoming more conscious about playing not to get hurt.

Then reality hits. You still have to earn the right to play in the playoffs.

[adc]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

It`s not semantics. The reality is this: 30 teams in the league could claim they are rebuilding. What separates Calgary from a team like the Ducks? We have a few young players in our forwards group? Well they have Cam Fowler, Hampus Lindholm, Simon Despres, and Sami Vatanen in their defense group. Are the Ducks rebuilding? What separates Calgary from the Winnipeg Jets, who have Ehlers, Petan, Scheifele, Trouba? There's just nothing that gives the Flames special status for youth or inexperience. If rebuilding just means a lack of talent, then why are the Flames up against the cap?

Is the team right now a finished product? No, neither are the 29 other teams. If you want to use rebuilding as an excuse then you need to have young players in the meat of the lineup making mistakes. Healthy scratching Granlund every other game is not what a rebuilding team does, it's more what a perennial playoff team up against the cap might do though.

Forcing guys who aren't ready into the line-up are what bad teams do. As we have seen from the Kings, Ducks, Hawks, Pens and Bruins there are more than one way to build a team into a perennial contender so acting as though doing x means they aren't rebuilding is crap.

As for having young guys in the meat of the order, you don't think having Monahan, Gaudreau, Hamilton, Brodie, Bennett and at times Ferland is doing just that? There needs to be more than just putting guys into important roles because they are young you need to put guys in roles that they will be successful in. Last year the Flames did a great job of this with guys like Monahan, Gaudreau, Jooris and Brodie. This year they have given Bennett, Ferland and Kulak the same opportunity. Outside of Ortio I can't think of a single instance when they are playing a vet more than a young when the young guy deserves a spot more.

It isn't Treliving's fault that Granlund continues to be a bit of a tweener in terms of an AHL guy and full time NHLer.

[drewtastic]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I don't buy this one for a second. This might have been the case for the first two months of last season, but in the rare event that some teams still occasionally look down at their opposition, that stopped happening with the Flames a long time before the playoffs started last year.

A lack of chemistry and unreliable goaltending have been the major culprits, but I think that Brodie's injury is also a really important factor. The timing of it has been especially bad. Yes, every team experiences injuries, but they seldom ever happen in a situation to so dramatically affect so many other players. With Giordano getting back up to game speed, and with Hamilton getting adjusted to a new team in a new Conference, it has emerged as a perfect storm of suck for the Flames.

I somewhat agree with you here, but it's more than this--in the Edmonton game alone, 3 of the goals were the result of Oiler players being left wide open (I say "3" because I chalk-up Hall's goal and McMoses' first to the "unreliable goaltending" you've mentioned).

This year, opposition players are being left unmarked by our normally hard-back-checking forwards. When you already suffer from spotty goaltending, suspect commitment to team defence is not a good addition. You quite rightly point out that not having Brodie on the back-end already adversely affects the team's overall ability to defend. Nevertheless, the "perfect storm of suck" is not restricted to the defencemen's struggles or Brodie's absence: our forwards are nowhere near as committed to our own zone as they were last year. N-H's goal the other night, for example, came as a result of two Flames' forwards letting him go to the net completely unchecked, free to bat in a fat rebound. There have been several examples like this already this season.

It is this lack of a "defence-first" mindset that most confounds me. While I did not expect this year to be a playoff year, necessarily, I did not expect the drop-off of defensive responsibility that we've seen so far. We have a ways to go in developing this team to be a perennial playoff contender, but without the effort component, no system/style of play is going to matter.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by DomeFoam

This is complete BS. This team is playing like hot garbage, a healthy TJ Brodie doesn't change that because it seems to me this sitting back, getting ####kicked like we're the oilers attitude is pretty contagious throughout the dressing room right now. Saying its Brodies absence is a complete cop out from larger issues

A little harsh but I agree with the point. The excuses about new systems, getting up to speed are tiring. So what was training camp and pre-season for? Hockey is hockey, they're all elite athletes in the same league. The Western Conference is not alien to a guy coming over in a trade. It's just as common for a player to excel after a trade in a new setting.

This roster had extremely low turnover. Almost none. The departing players are Schlemko, Diaz, and now Byron. That's it. For just one core player to be injured at the moment, we're doing pretty well health wise, and have no excuse regarding chemistry or systems. FFS Gio shouldn't have to re-learn hockey.

[tvp2003]

The biggest reason for this team's success last year was our blue line. It was the straw that stirred the drink; even when Gio went out, we still got top play from our blue line, and our top line carried us the rest of the way.

This year we're missing Norris Gio as much as we're missing Brodie. Aside from Wideman (who somehow has 5 points), Gio, Russell have yet to register a single point, and Dougie has only the one goal. It is clear on the powerplay, and you see it in our own end as well -- difficulty making passes, breaking out of the zone, stretch passes.

Until the blue line gets sorted out, I can see them continuing to spin their wheels just like they did all pre-season and in the first five games thus far.

EDIT: Monahan has also been disappointing -- only 6 SOG thus far. That's not cutting it for a top line centre playing with Hudler and Gaudreau.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by DomeFoam

This is complete BS. This team is playing like hot garbage, a healthy TJ Brodie doesn't change that because it seems to me this sitting back, getting ####kicked like we're the oilers attitude is pretty contagious throughout the dressing room right now.

So, this is a dressing room issue? One can only make such an assertion with any confidence by way of direct knowledge about what is happening in the dressing room. The only "BS" espoused here is the notion that you have even the slightest idea about what takes place behind closed doors.

Originally Posted by DomeFoam

Saying its Brodies absence is a complete cop out from larger issues

No, it's not. Never mind the fact that Brodie is very realistically the Flames best player, as Bingo has suggested. The fact that he is not in the lineup in October is absolutely a HUGE problem that contributes to a good number of other issues. Yes, he is just one player, but his absence has effectively reduced the effectiveness of the entire Flames defense core: The top pairing presently consists of one player getting up to speed after a serious injury, and another player playing for a new team in a new conference for the first time in his career.

For those unconvinced about how much of an adjustment it is for a player like Hamilton to make, consider this: Chris Pronger—one of the best defensemen of the past several decades—did not make an instant impact for the Oilers he was traded there in 2005. Dougie Hamilton is still basically a kid, and the only thing he knows in his short NHL career thus far is the Boston Bruins. It WILL take time, and Brodie's presence back in the lineup most certainly will make that adjustment ALOT easier.

[sa226]

A large part of the teams success and identity from last year was that players were almost interchangeable. How many injuries were there to start last season? Seemingly the whole centre ice position was injured.

You don't replace a guy like Brodie, but lets not pretend his absence is the reason for the poor start.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by sa226

A large part of the teams success and identity from last year was that players were almost interchangeable. How many injuries were there to start last season? Seemingly the whole centre ice position was injured...

I would argue that the biggest difference between last year and this season is a personnel issue. Players who were needed to slot in for injuries last year just simply did a better job than this year, and I think that one of the reasons for that is directly connected to just how valuable Brodie is to this team.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Hiller - 33
Ramo - 29
Engelland - 33
Giordano - 32
Wideman - 32
Smid - 29
Russell - 28
Hudler - 31
Stajan - 31
Jones - 31
Raymond - 30
Bollig - 28
Frolik - 27
Backlund - 26

This team is way too old and highly paid to use `rebuilding` as an excuse. The Oilers are the youngest team in the West and beat the Flames down hard. The Lightning are the youngest team in the NHL and were two wins from a championship.

I could take rebuilding as an excuse if Granlund were in the top 6, if Ortio were starting, etc. But this is a veteran team. Monahan being young isn`t an excuse.

Just because we have a bunch of middle 6 and bottom 4 players in their mid to late 20s earning decent contracts doesn't mean we are not rebuilding. This is year 3 of the rebuild. We have a solid young core and some veteran placeholders like jones Stajan engelland bollig Raymond etc.

I don't see how the fact we have some money tied up in average experienced players so we don't have to ice a team of rookies means we can't be classified as a rebuilding team.

We are definitely still rebuilding. It will be an interesting trade deadline. I hope they blow things up a bit and ship out wideman Hudler jones Stajan etc and let the kids finish the season if we are stinking and out of playoff contention. I think we can get some nice assets back for our expiring contracts and older players we won't be extending.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

The biggest difference between last season and this season is expectations and work ethic/hunger, Nobody would have batted an eye if we started 1-4 last season and played hard every game. This season the team was expected to be better but is not as fearless and relentless as they were last season. I think a large part of it is the number of kids we had up last season and how reliable and solid our 1st pairing was in all situations.

[1_Flames_Fan]

Hamilton = Bouwmeester 2.0 (J/k I think )