Smid thinks he is ready. UPD: Hopes to be cleared for mid October

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Looking at this whole thread and I am surprised that no one else has yet identified the negative impact of getting a 6/7 Dman back into the salary cap for the next 2 years.... especially when the other 6/7 guy is carrying a cap hit of 2.9M



Great work by InCoGnEto... nobody has yet filled the gap left by Cap Geek

If Smid is cleared to play then this means that Hudler and Russell are in their farewell as a Flame tour. 2016-17 InCoGnEto has the Flames dropping their Goalie cap hit from 7.9M to 4M and the cap going up 5% to 74.9 .... neither very likely to happen...


With Smid replacing Wotherspoon and adding 2M to the cap the Flame committed 2015-16 cap without Hudler and Russell is 71.9M ... above the 2014-15 cap allowed.

The roster 2016-17 is short 2 players.

If nobody will pick up Raymond.... since he is making more than 900k his cap stays with the Flames.

There is a lot of Cp people that simply say get rid of Raymond/Smid/Engelland/ Bollig.... that has not been happening. For example when the Flames had a lot of cap room they did not make one cap space for asset trade.


Even for the 2015-16 season the addition of Smid move the Flames right up to the cap level. Which of the 17 listed forward get sent back to the AHL?

Maybe Ferland won't sign for less than a one-way 900K. That way his cap stays with the Flames when he get sent down.

It sure gets a lot more difficult for "Nothing given , everything earned" when contracts make you play Mason Raymond over someone you have to bury to save cap space.


PS. If I was the Canucks I sure would be willing to give Ferland a 1.8M *3 years one way deal and give up a 3rd round pick.

If Ferland signs an offer sheet with anyone for 1.2M the Flames get nothing.

Of course they would match but then they have one less roster option.

You're not quite accurate here. I believe what happens is that if say Raymond is waived and sent down, $900,000 of his salary comes off the cap so his cap hit would be $2,250,000.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It is impossible to guess who will still be around a year from now, but we can look at it in the aggregate to get an idea.

Some of the contracts/players that are probably not in the long term plans include:

Raymond $3.15M (final year)
Bollig $1.25M (final year)
Smid $3.5M (final year)
Engelland $2.9M (final year)
Wideman $5.25M (final season)

I think the chances of all 3 of those defensemen being on the roster in 16/17 is virtually zero.

And I would go on to say that they are probably ALL gone by, if not the 1617 trade deadline, then after that season.

I would think that if Hudler and Russell are signed (I think they both will) that they will both be less than the $6M and $4.5M mentioned above.

I meant that as the absolute upper limit of what they would get and I certainly don't see them getting that from us. If they hit UFA, I could see a team like Nashville really going after Hudler or a team like Edmonton going after Russell but they will have to accept less to stay here IMO. Ideally Hudler is 5x5.25m and Russell is 5x3.75m at the most. The ball is really in their court though and these are probably the biggest contracts they will sign so I wouldn't blame them if the wanted to maximize the opportunity.

[Finger Cookin]

Regarding cap hits that can be buried, it's $375K above the league minimum. Therefore:

2015-16: $575K + $375K = $950K
2016-17: $575K + $375K = $950K
2017-18: $650K + $375K = $1.025M
2018-19: $650K + $375K = $1.025M
2019-20: $700K + $375K = $1.075M
2020-21: $700K + $375K = $1.075M
2021-22: $750K + $375K = $1.125M

With regards to defense pairs and ice-time, if the Flames third pair could be counted on for even 15 minutes a night this season, it would make a huge difference to the quality of minutes the top 4 can provide.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

You're not quite accurate here. I believe what happens is that if say Raymond is waived and sent down, $900,000 of his salary comes off the cap so his cap hit would be $2,250,000.

Don't know if you get a 900K break if it is over 900K the whole thing counts.

I tried looking it up and couldn't come up with a clear answer.


Any CBA gurus out there that would be able to answer?


Keeping on topic what cap hit would Smid have if he was waived , not claimed and sent down.

[Enoch Root]

you get a $950K break, but that's it

and you still have to replace the player

[Enoch Root]

For example, let's say the Flames sent down Raymond and replaced him with Poirier.

The Flames would still have $3.15M - $950K = $2.2M for on the books for Raymond

Plus they would add $925K for Poirier, so they would still have $2.2M + $925K = $3.125M on the books, saving a whopping $25K

[Freeway]

If Raymond's in the NHL, he makes $3.15 million and counts $3.15 million against the cap.
If Raymond's in the AHL, he makes $3.15 million and counts $2.20 million against the cap.

[IgiTang]

I dont see both of Smid and Engalland on the team past this season. Further to that, one of Raymond, Stajan and Jones will be gone after the season or at the deadline. If not all of them.

Then consider the log jam at Center in 2 years.

Monahan
Backlund
Bennett
Granlund
Arnold
Jankowski
Colborne (mentioned last due to able to play wing)

Treliving is not going to lose sight of the cap in 2 years and is absolutely going to make moves that will provide options without putting the core in danger.

[jayswin]

One other minor thing that teams will be keeping in mind for the summer of 2017 is teams will be having to leave NHL players unprotected for an expansion draft for at least one and likely two new NHL teams.

If you work hard and get rid of every questionable contract and perfectly tailor your team for the cap in the next two seasons, you could potentially be setting yourself up to lose a quality player that you really wanted if there's no Raymond/Jones/Stajan type players left.

[420since1974]

Calgary's potential for Cap hell will be at the end of this season.

Gaudreau and Monahan will be RFAs and will most likely receive large, long term contracts, though I haven't completely given up on the possibility of bridge contracts.

Byron, Hiller, Hudler, Jones, Nakladal, Ramo, & Russell will be UFAs looking for a raise.
I'd like to be able to keep Hudler, Russell, and one of Hiller/Ramo but there won't be Cap space available unless most of the unfavorable contracts below are moved this season.
I expect Jones to be moved for a 3rd or 4th round draft pick at the TDL this season.

Bollig, Engelland, Raymond, Smid, & Wideman's contracts all expire at the end of 2016/2017. That frees up over $16M in Cap space but it'll be one year too late.
Stajan will be the last "bad" contract, his will expire at the end of 2017/2018.

[bax]

Originally Posted by 420since1974

Calgary's potential for Cap hell will be at the end of this season.

Gaudreau and Monahan will be RFAs and will most likely receive large, long term contracts, though I haven't completely given up on the possibility of bridge contracts.

Byron, Hiller, Hudler, Jones, Nakladal, Ramo, & Russell will be UFAs looking for a raise.
I'd like to be able to keep Hudler, Russell, and one of Hiller/Ramo but there won't be Cap space available unless most of the unfavorable contracts below are moved this season.
I expect Jones to be moved for a 3rd or 4th round draft pick at the TDL this season.

Bollig, Engelland, Raymond, Smid, & Wideman's contracts all expire at the end of 2016/2017. That frees up over $16M in Cap space but it'll be one year too late.
Stajan will be the last "bad" contract, his will expire at the end of 2017/2018.

How do you figure Byron, Hiller, Jones, Nakladal, and Ramo will be looking for raises?

Byron has been signing one years deals for under a million bucks for 2 seasons now. Can't see him needing much of a raise.

One of Hiller or Ramo will most likely be traded or just let go at the end of the year. Ramo just got a significant raise so unless his play gets drastically better I doubt he will see a bigger salary.

Everyone seems to agree that although jones has his place, he is still overpaid. Most likely traded at the deadline or let go in the off season.

Nakladal hasn't even played a game in NA before. Way too premature to say he will be needing a raise.

[ricardodw]

Back to the topic at hand.... How is getting back a 3.5M on a 2 year deal 3rd pairing (6/7) D-man a good deal for the team?

Is that what anyone thought this team was missing?

I didn't see one post when Oduya signed with Dallas at 3.75 for 2 years about how the Flames missed out or that we needed Barrett Jackman 2 years at 2M.... or Z. Michalek getting away from us a 3.2 for 2 year.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Back to the topic at hand.... How is getting back a 3.5M on a 2 year deal 3rd pairing (6/7) D-man a good deal for the team?

Is that what anyone thought this team was missing?

I didn't see one post when Oduya signed with Dallas at 3.75 for 2 years about how the Flames missed out or that we needed Barrett Jackman 2 years at 2M.... or Z. Michalek getting away from us a 3.2 for 2 year.

Well we didn't sign him to a new contract. He was already on the team, so what I think most people are hoping for is that he returns to his level of play from a couple of years ago and plays up to his contract. If he plays up to a $3.5 million defenseman, he could be a worthwhile trade chip or make it easier to move one of the other guys. If he is not able to play up to that level and ends up being a healthy scratch many nights, then he will be very hard to move. Right now he's untradeable until he is able to prove he can play.

I agree our bottom pairing d are paid way too much. On paper and in $'s, the Flames have one of the best d corps in the league. They will need to play up to that level and maybe then some, in order for Treliving to be able to make a move without keeping salary and throwing in value.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Back to the topic at hand.... How is getting back a 3.5M on a 2 year deal 3rd pairing (6/7) D-man a good deal for the team?

Is that what anyone thought this team was missing?

I didn't see one post when Oduya signed with Dallas at 3.75 for 2 years about how the Flames missed out or that we needed Barrett Jackman 2 years at 2M.... or Z. Michalek getting away from us a 3.2 for 2 year.

So you're saying you don't like defensive depth? I think it's a good thing to have. Gives you more options, like making another deal.

As for Oduya, you are compare adding a contract to one we have already. Not the same thing.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Back to the topic at hand.... How is getting back a 3.5M on a 2 year deal 3rd pairing (6/7) D-man a good deal for the team?

Is that what anyone thought this team was missing?

I didn't see one post when Oduya signed with Dallas at 3.75 for 2 years about how the Flames missed out or that we needed Barrett Jackman 2 years at 2M.... or Z. Michalek getting away from us a 3.2 for 2 year.

You seem concerned about how much $ he's making...but it doesn't matter this season. The Flames are under the cap with everybody signed (except Ferland but plenty of room). We get it, he's overpaid, but who cares.

He adds to our depth at the bottom of the chart. Quite simple. Really a non-issue.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by heep223

You seem concerned about how much $ he's making...but it doesn't matter this season. The Flames are under the cap with everybody signed (except Ferland but plenty of room). We get it, he's overpaid, but who cares.

He adds to our depth at the bottom of the chart. Quite simple. Really a non-issue.

To be fair to Ricardo, the salary cap doesn't go away after this year. Hopefully BT finds smart ways to deal with it, but its not a "non issue" if you are managing the long term roster. Its not even a non issue this year if Flames are looking to add players at the deadline. They have a little over $2m in cap space which should be enough but its not a crazy amount of room.

[Sylvanfan]

Buy those guys out at the end of the year if you have to. Smid Engelland and Raymond only have a year left. If you buy them out it uses up just over 3 million in cap space for the next two years instead of 9 next year.

The challenge is the 16-17 season. After that I think the team cap is very workable.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Every team has a Smid, it really isn't a big deal. As long as one of Stajan, Raymond, Smid or Engelland goes before July 1st, we're laughing. Unless the cap goes down, then we might have to get rid of two of those guys. If it comes down to buying a guy out to create cap space, BT could easily do that. Other teams do it every year.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Every team has a Smid, it really isn't a big deal. As long as one of Stajan, Raymond, Smid or Engelland goes before July 1st, we're laughing. Unless the cap goes down, then we might have to get rid of two of those guys. If it comes down to buying a guy out to create cap space, BT could easily do that. Other teams do it every year.

Name one other 6/7 D-man making 3.5M

On a lottery team in 2013-14 Smid was #6 behind Brodie-Gio-Wideman-Russell and Chris freakin' Butler.

This not me putting him at #6 ... It is Bob Hartley and the Calgary coaching staff.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Name one other 6/7 D-man making 3.5M

On a lottery team in 2013-14 Smid was #6 behind Brodie-Gio-Wideman-Russell and Chris freakin' Butler.

This not me putting him at #6 ... It is Bob Hartley and the Calgary coaching staff.

But why do you even care? You seem to think this is an unsolvable problem. You haven't even shown it to be a problem, let alone something that cannot be fixed.