Who would you rather have? Kane/Toews or Getzlaf/Perry?

[GioforPM]

Anyway, while past achievements are somewhat relevant to this topic, they aren't dispositive. Where the trends are going has something to do with it too. Also, if the question "who would you rather have" implies adding to the Flames, it strikes me that we have a developing version of Toews and Kane in Monahan and Gaudreau, but we don't really have a Getzlaf/Perry - well, Perry and Bennett have their similarities, I guess.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Anyway, while past achievements are somewhat relevant to this topic, they aren't dispositive. Where the trends are going has something to do with it too. Also, if the question "who would you rather have" implies adding to the Flames, it strikes me that we have a developing version of Toews and Kane in Monahan and Gaudreau, but we don't really have a Getzlaf/Perry - well, Perry and Bennett have their similarities, I guess.

I really think that Bennett's style and ceiling is more comparable to Toews than Monahan's.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I have watched Ryan Getzlaf for a number of years. I've seen him play, junior and pro... Mason Raymond, you're no Ryan Getzlaf.

The point is that just because a player is unstoppable for a few games or even a Stanley Cup run(Fernando Pisani anyone??) doesn't mean he is the best player in the world.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

As other have mentioned it's a team game. Did you expect the Ducks to win last year when there was a 40 point drop-off between Getzlaf and Perry and the rest of the team? With a top D pairing that were 21 and 19 years old? With Hiller as the starting goalie heading into the POs?

What are the "categories" you are relying upon? Are they all team based?

What other category is there than winning? The Ducks have had decent teams over the years and have taken high expectations in the 1st round and failed miserably. Last year many people thought the reasons the Ducks lost was because of their stupid antics when things don't go their way.

Which is of course how Perry and Getzlaf, and now Kesler as well....can drag down their team.

If you want to ask who would you take for one game, I might take Getzlaf/Perry. But if you ask me who I take for 10 years, I would absolutely use the data given to me(past history) and pick Toews/Kane simply because they are a LOT more successful players and have won a lot more.

More successful usually means they are better.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Azure

The point is that just because a player is unstoppable for a few games or even a Stanley Cup run(Fernando Pisani anyone??) doesn't mean he is the best player in the world.

You missed my reference. Perhaps you are too young.

That said, the fact Getzlaf was a finalist for the Lindsay means that lots of people actually thought he was the best player in the world last year. And though the Ducks only made it to the second round, he played 13 games and had 17 points. The year before he had 15 points in 12 games. This isn't some freak occurance. He's pretty much a PPG in the playoffs.

Has Mason Raymond ever been unstoppable for 3 games in a row (POs or otherwise)? And I don't dislike the guy.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Can't go too far wrong with either pair, they are all terrific players in their own right. I give the slight nod to Toews and Kane, partly because they are younger and partly because they often play apart. Has Getzlaf/Perry played on separate lines for any length of time and were they successful? I like the idea that great players can elevate other teammates/lines.

[Azure]

Getzlaf is a great player. Top 5 player in the NHL perhaps. But that is based on 5+ years, and not on 10 playoff games.

My original argument was that you can't decide that he is the best player on the ice simply because he's unstoppable for a few games. Which of course he isn't because the series is 2-2.

Raymond had stretches last year where he scored 6 in 3 games IIRC. Pisani scored something like 16 goals in 4 rounds, perhaps more.

Nobody would pick those two over Getzlaf based on 7 games, or even a whole playoffs, so why would I say Getzlaf is the best player on the ice based on a 5 games when you have players like Kane, Toews, Keith, Perry, etc, etc?

Players should be judged on more than a few games, and because of that Toews/Kane are simply the better duo because in more than a few games they have won a few cups and been more successful in the playoffs.

Also, if players around you make you better, Getzlaf might actually be the best player in the world if Perry wouldn't play like a loser at times. Have to think the stupid antics have played a part in their high expectation/low achievement the last 5 years.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Azure

Interesting part here is that Getzlaf/Perry are looked at as the most dominant duo in the league, etc, etc....and yet they haven't had very much success outside of the regular season the last 5 years.

The Hawks have been VERY successful for 5 years.

So if you want to make decisions based on actual playoff performance, nobody would take Getzlaf/Perry over Toews/Kane.

Horrible logic. The Ducks have nowhere near the duo of Keith/Seabrook and have never had as solid of a supporting cast up front. Sharp/Hossa/etc.. Not to mention the numerous other players over the years. This year the Ducks added Kesler alone and look how much better their team is.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Azure

What other category is there than winning? The Ducks have had decent teams over the years and have taken high expectations in the 1st round and failed miserably. Last year many people thought the reasons the Ducks lost was because of their stupid antics when things don't go their way.

Which is of course how Perry and Getzlaf, and now Kesler as well....can drag down their team.

If you want to ask who would you take for one game, I might take Getzlaf/Perry. But if you ask me who I take for 10 years, I would absolutely use the data given to me(past history) and pick Toews/Kane simply because they are a LOT more successful players and have won a lot more.

More successful usually means they are better.

So you'd take Toews over Crosby sraight up? Kopitar and Carter over Crosby/Malkin?

The reason the Ducks have lost in the past has almost nothing to do with Perry and Getzlaf IMO. You can't go into the POs with only 2 very good defencemen who are both under 22. You can't go into the POs with a 3 goalie rotation of Hiller, Gibson and Andersen. And the supporting casts were not as strong as this year.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Azure

What other category is there than winning? The Ducks have had decent teams over the years and have taken high expectations in the 1st round and failed miserably. Last year many people thought the reasons the Ducks lost was because of their stupid antics when things don't go their way.

Which is of course how Perry and Getzlaf, and now Kesler as well....can drag down their team.

If you want to ask who would you take for one game, I might take Getzlaf/Perry. But if you ask me who I take for 10 years, I would absolutely use the data given to me(past history) and pick Toews/Kane simply because they are a LOT more successful players and have won a lot more.

More successful usually means they are better.

Dude your comparing apples and oranges. Chicago has had very deep stacked teams for all these years. The Ducks have hardly had that. Crosby/Malkin could be the best duo in hockey but the fact that the team around them isn't the greatest means the team isn't going to have a lot of success. Hockey is about the best players collectively not the best two players on the team.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Azure

Getzlaf is a great player. Top 5 player in the NHL perhaps. But that is based on 5+ years, and not on 10 playoff games.

My original argument was that you can't decide that he is the best player on the ice simply because he's unstoppable for a few games. Which of course he isn't because the series is 2-2.

Raymond had stretches last year where he scored 6 in 3 games IIRC. Pisani scored something like 16 goals in 4 rounds, perhaps more.

Nobody would pick those two over Getzlaf based on 7 games, or even a whole playoffs, so why would I say Getzlaf is the best player on the ice based on a 5 games when you have players like Kane, Toews, Keith, Perry, etc, etc?

Players should be judged on more than a few games, and because of that Toews/Kane are simply the better duo because in more than a few games they have won a few cups and been more successful in the playoffs.

Also, if players around you make you better, Getzlaf might actually be the best player in the world if Perry wouldn't play like a loser at times. Have to think the stupid antics have played a part in their high expectation/low achievement the last 5 years.

Getzlaf has played 94 PO games and has 91 points. His PPG is higher in the POs than in the regular season. Toews has 108 PO games and 95 points. I'd say these are two almost equal players.

As for "antics" - you will have to show me the cause and effect. The Ducks most dissapointing POs were, IMO, 2013. But Perry had only 4 pms over 7 games. This year he has 12 in 13 games. I think Perry is most effective when he's being a d-bag.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Can't go too far wrong with either pair, they are all terrific players in their own right. I give the slight nod to Toews and Kane, partly because they are younger and partly because they often play apart. Has Getzlaf/Perry played on separate lines for any length of time and were they successful? I like the idea that great players can elevate other teammates/lines.

It helps when you have a Hossa, Sharp, Saad, to balance out the lines. Plus when you have such amazing chemistry together why would you break that up? Flames could have tried to balance the scoring but that top line was so effective it didn't make a lot of sense to try and do it.

[Dime_On_Flames]

Originally Posted by heep223

I really think that Bennett's style and ceiling is more comparable to Toews than Monahan's.

I agree 100%

Trying to think of comparables to Monahan, no name really popped up instantly. A less physical but better scoring Keith Primeau? Kopitar, Carter?

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Dime_On_Flames

I agree 100%

Trying to think of comparables to Monahan, no name really popped up instantly. A less physical but better scoring Keith Primeau? Kopitar, Carter?

I think Bergeron is a decent comparison. Real smart player with no particularly elite skills, but at the same time he doesn't lack anywhere.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Toews/Kane

Getzlaf is whiny and Perry is scum.

Yeah, but Kane's a d0uche bag!

[OILFAN #81]

Originally Posted by codynw

I think Bergeron is a decent comparison. Real smart player with no particularly elite skills, but at the same time he doesn't lack anywhere.

Bergeron has no elite skills? He's been nominated 4 straight years as a Selke finalist and has won 2 of the past 3, finishing 2nd the other year. He's probably the games' best 2 way forward (Toews is up there too). Bergeron is elite in his all around game.

[aaronck]

Just reading an article on the Ducks/ Rangers and their great management- being able to succeed without rebuilding but it mentions the Blackhawks tanking to get Kane. did that happen or were they just bad?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...&click=dlvr.it

[codynw]

Originally Posted by OILFAN #81

Bergeron has no elite skills? He's been nominated 4 straight years as a Selke finalist and has won 2 of the past 3, finishing 2nd the other year. He's probably the games' best 2 way forward (Toews is up there too). Bergeron is elite in his all around game.

I didn't mean it as a bad thing. I just mean that he's good because he's smart not because he's the most talented guy. He's amazing at faceoffs, I forgot about those. But overall Bergeron is a "good at everything, great at nothing" kind of player.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by heep223

I really think that Bennett's style and ceiling is more comparable to Toews than Monahan's.

I compaerd Monahan to Toews based on leadership and 2-way play. I agree Bennett's skill is more comparable to Toews, but his aggressive play is more like Perry's.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by CSharp

Yeah, but Kane's a d0uche bag!

I can tolerate Kane. I know he gets tons of love on here because of his Calgary connection but I've never liked Getzlaf and along with Perry and Kesler would love to see him get punched in the face repeatedly.