Burke says he would have cut Ray Rice

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

Then you must be an exception to the rule:


http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/news/spanking-children/

Kids today could sure use a spanking....if you want them to learn that settling issues with violence is the right thing to do. Just look at the violent crime/murder rate. It's at the lowest level since the early 70s, when there was no debate about corporate punishment. I believe they even practiced it in the public school system.

Uh, it's corporal punishment, corporal referring to the body. What you're talking about is more like this.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/11/15/news...ll-settlement/

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

The way the NHL, NHLPA, players, and even Moore's teammates abandoned him, in favor of Bertuzzi was absolutely disgusting. If anyone here has the impression that the NHL is somehow morally superior to the NFL, they would be mistaken.

I think thats kind of telling how they see the situation, its obviously not as morally wrong to them as it is to you. Obviously this has been debated more than enough, but I don't think anyone (including Bertuzzi) thought it would have the outcome that did result, thus nobody in the hockey world really has the moral outrage that you have.

The closer comparison here would be Patrick Roy beating up his wife.

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by FAN

You can't be serious. 5 years for what Bertuzzi did? How was it premeditated beyond a reasonable doubt? Is it beyond a reasonable doubt that Bertuzzi went onto the ice thinking he would break Moore's neck or even sucker punch him? He wanted to fight him. Moore refused and Bertuzzi lost his cool/mind.

It's like if it was legal to fight and you're really angry at a person because he beat up your friend recently and you wanted to take things outside. He refuses and you end up punching him.

Moore's career was ended. Bertuzzi chose to attack Moore, and knock him out from behind. It does not matter what the end result was. The point is, Bertuzzi stalked Moore, and no matter what Moore did, Bertuzzi was determined to inflict bodily harm on him. Moore has since suffered post concussion syndrome so bad that he lost his source of income.

Maybe I am being a little extreme saying 5 years, but if Moore had died, a case of Manslaughter could easily be made.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by New Era

So there should be a difference because it happened in a hockey arena? Because that is what Brian Burke argued, as an executive of the Vancouver Canucks, when it happened in his arena. Does that click for you? Or does being a Flames fan, and Brian Burke being the president of the club, blind you to the facts and history of the events?

What?! Of course not. If Bertuzzi sucker punched his wife in the arena, I'm sure Burkes response would have been different. What happens while playing a sport usually has vastly different rules, laws and moral standards than if it happens out in public.

How do you not see that.

[jayswin]

How is this the debate we're having right now?

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Uh, it's corporal punishment, corporal referring to the body. What you're talking about is more like this.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/11/15/news...ll-settlement/

Sorry, I did not realize the spelling/grammar police are out in full force...

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

I think thats kind of telling how they see the situation, its obviously not as morally wrong to them as it is to you. Obviously this has been debated more than enough, but I don't think anyone (including Bertuzzi) thought it would have the outcome that did result, thus nobody in the hockey world really has the moral outrage that you have.

I think the fact that Bertuzzi and his lawyers offered Moore a measly $300,000 as a settlement initially, is very telling about how "remoseful" he is. I think the true issue of the Bertuzzi-Moore incident, is that Moore was a rookie at the time, and would never amount to a star player. If Bertuzzi did this to Iginla or Ovechkin, you would be singing a different tune..

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

Sorry, I did not realize the spelling/grammar police are out in full force...

That wasn't a grammar/spelling error.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

I think the fact that Bertuzzi and his lawyers offered Moore a measly $300,000 as a settlement initially, is very telling about how "remoseful" he is. I think the true issue of the Bertuzzi-Moore incident, is that Moore was a rookie at the time, and would never amount to a star player. If Bertuzzi did this to Iginla or Ovechkin, you would be singing a different tune..

well obviously, there is a reason this doesn't happen to players like Iginla, and happens to players like Moore.

As for the $300k, meh.... I could argue that, but now we're just veering way too off track. Why don't you compare it to the Avs goalies instead, Roy and Varlamov? Those are ACTUALLY relevent..... I do agree hockey probably doesn't have any more of a moral high ground though.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Zevo

What?! Of course not. If Bertuzzi sucker punched his wife in the arena, I'm sure Burkes response would have been different. What happens while playing a sport usually has vastly different rules, laws and moral standards than if it happens out in public.

How do you not see that.

And it shouldn't be. There should not be a second set of rules for those that play a contact sport. Did it ever occur to you the reason these guys do the things they do is because they are encouraged to be violent to extremes on their chosen field of competition? The expectation that these guys can just shut off the aggression and violence is unreasonable. They should be encouraged to show the same level of respect toward each other on the field as they should toward everyone else off the field. How do you not see that?

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by New Era

And it shouldn't be. There should not be a second set of rules for those that play a contact sport. Did it ever occur to you the reason these guys do the things they do is because they are encouraged to be violent to extremes on their chosen field of competition? The expectation that these guys can just shut off the aggression and violence is unreasonable. They should be encouraged to show the same level of respect toward each other on the field as they should toward everyone else off the field. How do you not see that?

Except every one else on the field is trained to handle that sort of aggressive life style .

A cognitive human can realize the difference between work and play.

I am a Red Seal Certified Chef. I don't go home and yell at my better half because she forgot an Item off the shopping list like I would a sous Chef forgetting to order of an item we needed.

One, you get payment to act the way you do. Sports are Violent. Get over it. Stop being a P.C. Thug . If you are paid to be mean and aggressive. You do as your boss tells you. If you do it outside of office hours your just a grade A #######.

[Phanuthier]

what I'm really confused about is how New Era is digging in his heals to make Bertuzzi the comparable, when clearly Patrick Roy and Varlamov are the better comparisons as women beaters.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by flameswin

That wasn't a grammar/spelling error.

You're being a real fact Nazi right now, flameswin.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

what I'm really confused about is how New Era is digging in his heals to make Bertuzzi the comparable, when clearly Patrick Roy and Varlamov are the better comparisons as women beaters.

To be fair tho, Varlarmov was cleared .

[Tinordi]

Are we actually arguing about whether or not it was the right hypothetical decision to cut a guy who beats up his wife?

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

It does not matter what the end result was. .

What? Of course the end result mattered. You think that had Moore broke his pinky toe his lawsuit would have been such a big deal and that drawn out?

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

I think the fact that Bertuzzi and his lawyers offered Moore a measly $300,000 as a settlement initially, is very telling about how "remoseful" he is.

I understand your own "feelings" on this issue but you got to take into account the law and how the legal system works. Not taking into account the law just makes your argument ridiculous.

What Bertuzzi and his lawyers offered as a settlement has nothing to do with how remorseful Bertuzzi is. It's absolutely ignorant to suggest otherwise. Bertuzzi hired lawyers to represent him. One of the primary jobs of Bertuzzi's lawyers is to limit Moore's recovery. This has nothing to do with whether Bertuzzi is remorseful or not. You think Moore was 100% responsible for how much recovery he was asking for? That's all on his lawyers.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Are we actually arguing about whether or not it was the right hypothetical decision to cut a guy who beats up his wife?

No, not at all. One person is arguing that Brian Burke is a liar and now it's on a tangent about the Bertuzzi/Moore incident.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

I think thats kind of telling how they see the situation, its obviously not as morally wrong to them as it is to you. Obviously this has been debated more than enough, but I don't think anyone (including Bertuzzi) thought it would have the outcome that did result, thus nobody in the hockey world really has the moral outrage that you have.

To bring this back to the current debate - what people thought the outcome should have been is irrelevant to what the outcome was. Bertuzzi should have been jailed for what he did, and he should have been banned from hockey for life. And if he did that today, rather than ten years ago, both might well have happened.

The NHL was fortunate that the only real fallout back then was bad publicity on ESPN rather than sponsors lining up to kick the league to the curb. If the latter had come to pass, Bettman would have been forced to slap Bertuzzi with something much greater than what ended up as only a pitiful 20-game suspension.

We're seeing the same thing now with US Soccer's decision to keep Hope Solo around despite her own domestic abuse charges because the sponsors have remained mum, even as the very same sponsors are hanging the NFL for the actions of its players.


That is the general hypocrisy of both sports leagues and organizations, and their sponsors. And as far as Burke is concerned, it is very easy for him to talk in hypotheticals. I hope that we don't experience a situation where we discover if he actually means it. Because no disrespect to Burke intended, but I don't think he would respond much differently than executives have in the other sports - the decision to suspend/cut will be weighted far more on the risk of damage to the brand than moral values.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

To bring this back to the current debate - ....

That is the general hypocrisy of both sports leagues and organizations, and their sponsors. And as far as Burke is concerned, it is very easy for him to talk in hypotheticals. I hope that we don't experience a situation where we discover if he actually means it. Because no disrespect to Burke intended, but I don't think he would respond much differently than executives have in the other sports - the decision to suspend/cut will be weighted far more on the risk of damage to the brand than moral values.

well I'm obviously not going to go back to that debate for obvious reasons..... you are right, its easier for Burke to say right now when he's not in that situation. All decisions does come down to dollars, you are right.... not that I have any proof over it, but I bet if the Flames were put into this situation, they would publically back to the player to try to sweep the issue under the rug, but within a few months you would probably see the player dropped on a lazy Thursday afternoon before a long weekend. I think Burke would probably do what he says he would, but you wouldn't see it publically as you don't want your organization and league to be on the front page of such embarassing news, but I do find Burke to be someone who has stronger feelings towards these issues (due to his son) versus, say, a team like the Avalanche (i.e. Roy, maybe Varlamov? I honestly didn't follow the Varlamov story)