Summer 2014 Prospect Ranking Poll Rd2

[Fire]

Originally Posted by Drury18

I disagree. It should have alot of bearing on how they are ranked because at this time, we are basing his play on how he plays at a Junior level against kids who are still developing both skill and body size. This is not an indicator how well they will do against men and at a higher level.

I can name a number of players that the Flames selected (and even other teams) in previous drafts with high picks that did not play up to where it was projected. They looked great in Juniors, never panned out in the NHL. Patrick Stefan, Rick DiPietro, Alexandre Daigle,

For a Flames example:

2008 - Greg Nemisz was our first round pick. Lance Bouma was a 3rd rounder, TJ Brodie was our 4th rounder. In two years, Brodie blew both of them away as a top prospect. Nemisz is playing in the AHL struggling for an NHL spot.

2009 - Tim Erixon was our first rounder, Ryan Howse was our 2nd rounder. Joni Ortio was our 6th rounder. Not going to beat the dead horse here.

2010 - Max Reinhart was a 3rd rounder, John Ramage and Bill Arnold were 4th rounders, Michael Ferland a 5th rounder. The 2010 draft was considered a "weaker" one by most Flames fans. It's also possible that this draft where we only chose later will produce 3 NHL players.

2011 - Sven was our 1st rounder, Granlund and Wotherspoon our 2nd rounder, Gaudreau was the 4th rounder. Gaudreau just won the top prospect vote in 3 years over our first rounder Sven who is also being beat out by someone drafted this year.

Point being? Draft position really doesn't mean alot and shouldn't have a bearing where we rank prospects. We should be looking at skill set and what they have done at a more comparable level. OHL hockey is not comparable to NHL hockey.

If Markus Granlund was playing on another team would you trade Bennett for him?

If the answer is no then you should rank Bennett higher. If the answer is yes then your crazy.

[Drury18]

Originally Posted by Fire

If Markus Granlund was playing on another team would you trade Bennett for him?

If the answer is no then you should rank Bennett higher. If the answer is yes then your crazy.

What have you seen from Bennett at an NHL or AHL level to impress you?

What has he done against men and those that are NHL ready to show that he is potentially a legitimate NHL player?

Those are questions I need answered before I can rank him any higher then players who I have seen what they can do at the NHL level. Simple as that.

[Read Only]

I am not sure it is fair to compare a top 4 pick versus guys chosen in the 20's. Sure there is a few busts but for the vast majority of picks top 5 guys turn out much better than those drafted later, even other 1st rounders.

And we are not comparing him against other juniors but past history of guys with his skill level/production and how they did translating to the NHL. Now as you point out it isn't a sure fire way to project things but it is pretty damn good.

If we were talking about a guy picked in the 20's (say Jared McCann) maybe it would have more of an impact but a top 4 guy like Bennett is an elite guy in my view and should not be lumped in with Nemisz, Erixon etc.

[Read Only]

Originally Posted by Drury18

What have you seen from Bennett at an NHL or AHL level to impress you?

What has he done against men and those that are NHL ready to show that he is potentially a legitimate NHL player?

Those are questions I need answered before I can rank him any higher then players who I have seen what they can do at the NHL level. Simple as that.

I haven't seen McDavid do anything at the AHL or NHL level but that doesn't mean I am trading him for McGrattan if we get him.

[chalms04]

Voted Van Brabant, because the song Black Betty was stuck in my head.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Drury18

What have you seen from Bennett at an NHL or AHL level to impress you?

What has he done against men and those that are NHL ready to show that he is potentially a legitimate NHL player?

Those are questions I need answered before I can rank him any higher then players who I have seen what they can do at the NHL level. Simple as that.

This is a really dumb way to look at it. Based on his ability in the OHL, he projects to be a very good NHL player one day. At this time last year, would you have ranked Roman Horak above Monahan? Because that's essentially what you're doing with Bennett/Granlund right now.

[Rick M.]

I voted Bennett but I'm sure Wolf will win by a nose...er fist.

[DJones]

What exactly are we ranking? The ceiling of the prospect? Where they are now?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Drury18

...Point being? Draft position really doesn't mean alot and shouldn't have a bearing where we rank prospects. We should be looking at skill set and what they have done at a more comparable level. OHL hockey is not comparable to NHL hockey.

Okay, you are probably fair to eliminate draft position as a component to ranking prospects, but I don't think you are reading peoples' projections on this matter correctly. I will respond with two points: first, I don't find your "draft bust" examples at all compelling, primarily because for the first set, these all occurred in a now nearly archaic era of drafting. Scouting has dramatically improved just within the past five years, to say nothing of the past ten or fifteen. The second set were for the most part lousy picks—and were generally acknowledged as such at the time they were made. Irrespective of that, there is a big difference between drafting in the top-five and the top-twenty, and the draft history shows a MUCH greater fluctuation among these lower picks in terms of their NHL success. So, no, draft history doesn't really do anything to make your case.

Second, draft position does not exist within a vacuum. Draft position is a product of player talent, potential, and team evaluative skill and needs. Fine. Don't factor into your consideration Bennett's draft position. But by the same token, you should absolutely not be wholesale dismissing everything about him that prompted the Flames to select him with the #4 pick. In other words, I for one am not using his draft position as a means to project his value so much as I am using his skill set and projected potential based on thousands of viewings and reports compiled by hundreds of professional scouts, all of which STRONGLY suggest that he is likely to be the best play from the current group of Flames prospects.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by DJones

What exactly are we ranking? The ceiling of the prospect? Where they are now?

I'm ranking them by how much of an impact I think they'll have in the NHL.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by DJones

What exactly are we ranking? The ceiling of the prospect? Where they are now?

What's the rationale behind ranking prospects according to just their NHL ETA?

[Papi34]

I feel Sven is a classic case of lost shine with new toys. Everyone wants to crown Bennett because hes the new shiny toy yet Sven was drafted 7 spots later than Sam and showed tremendous skill in jr and the ability to compete in the NHL and AHL, kid is still 21 and has a never quit attitude and will work hard to get back to the NHL. I think he impresses people this camp and makes the team.

Its a tough debate because they are at different stages of their careers but i still take Sven who has shown me more at a professional level. I agree that Bennett probably has a higher ceiling its all how you view this poll. As of now i believe that Sven is the more promising prospect but that also includes 3 years of development. I have no doubt that Bennett should and will be better in the long run but we are talking prospects right now and the way i interpret that is who will have the biggest impact on the Calgary Flames soonest, to me that is Sven

[Read Only]

Originally Posted by DJones

What exactly are we ranking? The ceiling of the prospect? Where they are now?

I don't think Bingo put in strict guidelines and that he leaves it up to each individual on how to decide.

We have obviously seen they are different views on how to evaluate who is the best.

For me, as someone mentioned earlier, I think the easiest and best approach is if I had to choose 1 to keep who would it be. Or would I trade player A for player B.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by DJones

What exactly are we ranking? The ceiling of the prospect? Where they are now?

I'm ranking them based on the following scenario:

I am tasked with feeding all of the remaining players on the list into a wood chipper. I can however, save one! Which one should I choose to best help the Calgary Flames in the future.

[Vulcan]

I'm using Bennett's draft position, for sure. Later we can look back with hindsight and decide if it was worthy but for now it's all we have to go on, unless we have personally seen him play a lot. Historically a #4 draft pick means he's a very good player and in our case probably one of, if not the best prospect we've ever had. The pro scouts opinions top any opinions we may have at this stage.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

I'm ranking them based on the following scenario:

I am tasked with feeding all of the remaining players on the list into a wood chipper. I can however, save one! Which one should I choose to best help the Calgary Flames in the future.

Can we just put David Jones in the wood chipper and call it a day?

[Coach]

I really don't understand how there is confusion here. Seems pretty self-explanatory to rank players by who we think will end up as the better player.

[GreenLantern]

Crap I was looking for Bennett but couldn't see him so I went with Baertchi... noodles.

CTRL+F is your friend

[wingmaker]

Very surprised there is still so much Baertschi faith. While his play in Junior was excellent and he showed a few glimpses in his first NHL stint, his play since then has been downright mediocre at the NHL level and the AHL (according to posters who watched the Heat on any regular basis). While it is far too early to give up on him and it is still very possible that he could develop into a great player, he has not demonstrated that this is a certainty or even a good bet. He will need a massive change in trajectory to achieve what was previously hoped for him. Many Flames prospects outplayed him while on the same team (Granlund, Reinhardt, Wotherspoon, Ortio) in terms of impact and development while others are still on upward trajectories with much more promise that they will actually continue (Poirier, Klimchuk, Arnold etc). To me, Sven's only claim to any kind of top ranking is the faith he built up with the fan base due to the fact that he arrived when the organization was begging for a young stud.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by wingmaker

Very surprised there is still so much Baertschi faith. While his play in Junior was excellent and he showed a few glimpses in his first NHL stint, his play since then has been downright mediocre at the NHL level and the AHL (according to posters who watched the Heat on any regular basis). While it is far too early to give up on him and it is still very possible that he could develop into a great player, he has not demonstrated that this is a certainty or even a good bet. He will need a massive change in trajectory to achieve what was previously hoped for him. Many Flames prospects outplayed him while on the same team (Granlund, Reinhardt, Wotherspoon, Ortio) in terms of impact and development while others are still on upward trajectories with much more promise that they will actually continue (Poirier, Klimchuk, Arnold etc). To me, Sven's only claim to any kind of top ranking is the faith he built up with the fan base due to the fact that he arrived when the organization was begging for a young stud.

Once they switched him back to LW he started playing much better in the AHL. I still think he'll be an effective top 6 player in the NHL.