Hockey's Future ranks Flames Prospect Pool 6th

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by wingmaker

Ok. Not sure what your point is. Sounds like we mostly agree. Perhaps the true issue is that developing players has vastly improved post Sutter.

just talking to myself. maybe i should go home, its friday.

[TheDebaser]

Originally Posted by ignite09

An Avatar bet if you care enough is fine for me. More just a fan of this kid, then out to prove anyone a fool.

What do you like about Rafikov ignite? Where have you seen him play?

[ignite09]

Originally Posted by TheDebaser

What do you like about Rafikov ignite? Where have you seen him play?

Honestly, nothing but highlights and prospect updates. However his progression sounds solid, and he plays a defensive game that Burke loves. Hard hitting, aggravating, with a scoring touch. I just think he suffers from the Russia factor, and if he's honest about coming over to the CHL next year, the exposure will move him up our prospect list significantly.

[bubbsy]

sure we've sucked the past 5 seasons, but look at the prospect pool comparison (as per hf) in 2008 vs 2014 (pre-draft):

Top 20 at a glance
1. Dustin Boyd, C (7.0 B)
2. Mikael Backlund, C (7.5 C)
3. Leland Irving, G (7.5 C)
4. Juuso Puustinen, RW (7.0 C)
5. Andrei Taratukhin, C (7.0 D)
6. Curtis McElhinney, G (6.5 C)
7. Mark Giordano, D (6.5 C)
8. Eric Nystrom, LW (6.0 B)
9. Matt Keetley, G (6.5 C)
10. John Negrin, D (6.5 C)
11. Tim Ramholt, D (6.0 C)
12. Adam Pardy, D (6.0 C)
13. Kris Chucko, LW (6.0 C)
14. Matt Pelech, D (6.0 C)
15. Brandon Prust, LW (5.5 B)
16. John Armstrong, C (6.0 C)
17. Aaron Marvin, C (5.5 C)
18. David Van der Gulik, RW (5.5 C)
19. Devin Didiomete, LW (5.5 C)
20. Jordan Fulton, C (7 F)


http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ts_spring2008/

[Hackey]

Kinda hard to judge at this point because we pretty much know where all these players careers will go and don't really have any idea of the top 20 right now. There is always optimism with prospects when they are still young but as we always see that can change. The development and added opportunity should lead to more success though. Back in 2008 prospects weren't given the chances they are right now. I think that plays a major role if a player feels they have a legit chance to make it. Something to work towards.

[sun]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

sure we've sucked the past 5 seasons, but look at the prospect pool comparison (as per hf) in 2008 vs 2014 (pre-draft):

Top 20 at a glance
1. Dustin Boyd, C (7.0 B)
2. Mikael Backlund, C (7.5 C)
3. Leland Irving, G (7.5 C)
4. Juuso Puustinen, RW (7.0 C)
5. Andrei Taratukhin, C (7.0 D)
6. Curtis McElhinney, G (6.5 C)
7. Mark Giordano, D (6.5 C)
8. Eric Nystrom, LW (6.0 B)
9. Matt Keetley, G (6.5 C)
10. John Negrin, D (6.5 C)
11. Tim Ramholt, D (6.0 C)
12. Adam Pardy, D (6.0 C)
13. Kris Chucko, LW (6.0 C)
14. Matt Pelech, D (6.0 C)
15. Brandon Prust, LW (5.5 B)
16. John Armstrong, C (6.0 C)
17. Aaron Marvin, C (5.5 C)
18. David Van der Gulik, RW (5.5 C)
19. Devin Didiomete, LW (5.5 C)
20. Jordan Fulton, C (7 F)


http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ts_spring2008/

Ugly list, but it makes you wonder what gems we currently have hidden at 7 and 15 for example.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by ignite09

You guys will certainly be a case study in the drafting vs developement argument. The whole "suck ass until you're awesome" approach to building a stanley cup champion hasn't proven to be as idiot proof as some might hope.However, hopefully for the sake of the Sabres, you guys have a liitle more luck then our friends too the North.

Rebuilding isn't about sucking; it's about stockpiling draft picks and prospects. Buffalo has done that. Edmonton hasn't. When did they load up on 1st and 2nd round picks?

[TheDebaser]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Rebuilding isn't about sucking; it's about stockpiling draft picks and prospects. Buffalo has done that. Edmonton hasn't. When did they load up on 1st and 2nd round picks?

2007 -> 3 1sts (Gagner, Nash, Plante)

2010 -> 1 1st, 3 2nds (Hall, Pitlick, Marincin, Hamilton)

2011-> 2 1sts, 1 2nd (RNH, Klefbom, Musil)

Rebuilding isn't just about getting picks, it's about building a team. Burke took the opposite strategy in Toronto, and by the time he left the pieces were really beginning to fit together over there.

I'm hoping Treliving and Burke can kind of Ying/Yang a good drafting and development organization bolstered by intelligent hockey trades.

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by TheDebaser

2007 -> 3 1sts (Gagner, Nash, Plante)

2010 -> 1 1st, 3 2nds (Hall, Pitlick, Marincin, Hamilton)

2011-> 2 1sts, 1 2nd (RNH, Klefbom, Musil)

Rebuilding isn't just about getting picks, it's about building a team. Burke took the opposite strategy in Toronto, and by the time he left the pieces were really beginning to fit together over there.

I'm hoping Treliving and Burke can kind of Ying/Yang a good drafting and development organization bolstered by intelligent hockey trades.

this season has kind of shown that they weren't though

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by TheDebaser

2007 -> 3 1sts (Gagner, Nash, Plante)

2010 -> 1 1st, 3 2nds (Hall, Pitlick, Marincin, Hamilton)

2011-> 2 1sts, 1 2nd (RNH, Klefbom, Musil)

Rebuilding isn't just about getting picks, it's about building a team. Burke took the opposite strategy in Toronto, and by the time he left the pieces were really beginning to fit together over there.

I'm hoping Treliving and Burke can kind of Ying/Yang a good drafting and development organization bolstered by intelligent hockey trades.

I think all this shows is that your scouting and development are hugely important. You need to capitalize on your opportunities. Having more picks is always better than having less. Luck obviously plays a big part of it as well. Some drafts are just deeper with better players. RNH and Yakupov were pretty bad first overall picks. Those drafts wern't that great. Imagine the difference if your getting Mackinnon and McDavid. Hitting on your firsts is very important and then being able to hit on a few later ones to add depth and trading assets is a close second in importance. If you fail at either your team likely struggles to get over the hump to become a contender. Trades and signings can only do so much and are the least efficient way to get better.

[TheDebaser]

Originally Posted by diane_phaneuf

this season has kind of shown that they weren't though

That kind of process is really hands on and Burke got fired at right about the most crucial time. Could he have made different decisions that would have prevented the implosion? I don't know the answer to that, but on a longer timescale, it's clear that the leafs are at least headed in the right direction.

[Hackey]

I don't think you can blame Burke for the Leafs crapping the bed at the end of the season a year after he was let go. That blame has to go to the players who didn't perform or the coach. Maybe even the new GM. He still got them some very key pieces like Kessel, JVR, Lupul, Kadri, Gardiner, Phaneuf, Franson, Rielly who are all quality players most teams would like to have.

[ricardodw]

On the rankings #3 Detroit has Anthony Mantha --- 2 picks ahead of Poirier as their # prospect.


in the Flame system Poirier not even in the Flames top 5 ( well he might be but beaten out by Jankowski) but somehow Detroit is ranked higher.

A logic failure it would seem.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

sure we've sucked the past 5 seasons, but look at the prospect pool comparison (as per hf) in 2008 vs 2014 (pre-draft):

Top 20 at a glance
1. Dustin Boyd, C (7.0 B)
2. Mikael Backlund, C (7.5 C)
3. Leland Irving, G (7.5 C)
4. Juuso Puustinen, RW (7.0 C)
5. Andrei Taratukhin, C (7.0 D)
6. Curtis McElhinney, G (6.5 C)
7. Mark Giordano, D (6.5 C)
8. Eric Nystrom, LW (6.0 B)
9. Matt Keetley, G (6.5 C)
10. John Negrin, D (6.5 C)
11. Tim Ramholt, D (6.0 C)
12. Adam Pardy, D (6.0 C)
13. Kris Chucko, LW (6.0 C)
14. Matt Pelech, D (6.0 C)
15. Brandon Prust, LW (5.5 B)
16. John Armstrong, C (6.0 C)
17. Aaron Marvin, C (5.5 C)
18. David Van der Gulik, RW (5.5 C)
19. Devin Didiomete, LW (5.5 C)
20. Jordan Fulton, C (7 F)


http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ts_spring2008/

are you trying to prove how useless it is to try and project prospects?

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by TheDebaser

That kind of process is really hands on and Burke got fired at right about the most crucial time. Could he have made different decisions that would have prevented the implosion? I don't know the answer to that, but on a longer timescale, it's clear that the leafs are at least headed in the right direction.

a lot of people would disagree with that

they were one of the most outshot teams in the league the last two seasons, and a lot of people were predicting the 2nd half slump that eventually came

now would Burke have made the exact moves Nonis did who knows, but the team he had built as it stands was well on it's way to being a 7-10 seed essentially year in and year out, exactly where you dont want to be

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Rebuilding isn't about sucking; it's about stockpiling draft picks and prospects. Buffalo has done that. Edmonton hasn't. When did they load up on 1st and 2nd round picks?

No, rebuilding is about re-building your team.

Acquiring a lot of draft picks is certainly part of that, but not the only thing. Buffalo has been foregoing other aspects of their organization in a rather single-minded attempt to gain picks.

We shall see whether that proves to be a successful strategy or not.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

On the rankings #3 Detroit has Anthony Mantha --- 2 picks ahead of Poirier as their # prospect.


in the Flame system Poirier not even in the Flames top 5 ( well he might be but beaten out by Jankowski) but somehow Detroit is ranked higher.

A logic failure it would seem.

Mantha had a great season but I wouldn't worry about it too much, HF's grading is mostly useless.

[mile]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

No, rebuilding is about re-building your team.

Acquiring a lot of draft picks is certainly part of that, but not the only thing. Buffalo has been foregoing other aspects of their organization in a rather single-minded attempt to gain picks.

We shall see whether that proves to be a successful strategy or not.

Just curious, what are the Sabres foregoing to get picks? They are stockpiling picks, but is it really coming at the expense of anything else?

If it's development/culture you are referring to, they hired Ted Nolan early this season with the intention of improving their team. While their regular season was poor, I haven't heard of anything troubling regarding players habits/losing culture. Hodgson, Ennis, and Girgensons are solid young forwards - and from what I've read Myers is slowly gaining his confidence back under Nolan (and got invited to the World Championships). I think given a full training camp and season to establish himself, I think they will take steps forward just as Calgary has done this season.

As far as drafting is concerned, their defense core is stacked, and they will likely get the top forwards they need this year and next year as well. They've done everything Edmonton hasn't as far as draft picks go.

As a Flames fan, I'm looking at Buffalo as a huge threat as a rebuilding team.

[dying4acup]

Originally Posted by mile

Just curious, what are the Sabres foregoing to get picks? They are stockpiling picks, but is it really coming at the expense of anything else?

If it's development/culture you are referring to, they hired Ted Nolan early this season with the intention of improving their team. While their regular season was poor, I haven't heard of anything troubling regarding players habits/losing culture. Hodgson, Ennis, and Girgensons are solid young forwards - and from what I've read Myers is slowly gaining his confidence back under Nolan (and got invited to the World Championships). I think given a full training camp and season to establish himself, I think they will take steps forward just as Calgary has done this season.

As far as drafting is concerned, their defense core is stacked, and they will likely get the top forwards they need this year and next year as well. They've done everything Edmonton hasn't as far as draft picks go.

As a Flames fan, I'm looking at Buffalo as a huge threat as a rebuilding team.

The risk is for the sabres, these quality players on the NHL roster will be such losers, that when it comes time to win, they won't know how to. With no vets to show them that they need to throw a body in front of a puck, or bust ass on a back check, they will only learn to score, and assume that when better defenseman arrive, everything will be ok. Maybe Nolan is a good enough coach to overcome this, because he was there while guys like miller were there to pound the point home, but the oilers nurchered their young scorers, and they have no idea what to do right now. Nobody showed them at the start. More recently, it looks like they don't want to hear it.

What I like most about the flames year 1 rebuild is that they enjoyed some moderate success. Most of it by playing the coach's style. The biggest reason why it worked (IMO) is that leaders and veterans like Giordano and Cammy and Backlund and Wideman and Brodie and McGrattan Stajan drove it home.

You can hear it from the coach all you want, but if the vets don't care, it ain't gonna happen.

Ask Pat Quinn and Tom Renney. Dallas Eakins might be a genious, but do the kids care?

[BlackWallStreet]

If I ever see feaster around town I'm gonna buy him a booster juice