That, to me, is just crazy. Yes, women should be careful, but when something goes wrong I don't see how you can even consider accepting the disgusting acts of the rapist even a little bit. And that's what you do when you consider laying even the smallest shred of blame on the victim.
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Okay, but "not worth the hassle" - what does that mean? If it means "I don't want to be in a situation where I might have to interact in a sexually charged context right now", totally legitimate. If it's "oh there are a bunch of guys there, I'm not going because I'm scared one of them might assault me", I'd say that's a problem with you that you should probably work on.
It's more "I'm sick of going to the bar and having creepy dudes put their hands on me without asking and then having the bouncers do jack #### about it when I complain." So the former I guess.
Ok so I work in a Jail. I have to come into contact with people who are infected with blood borne illnesses. I would say upwards of 50% of offenders have HIV, Hepatitis, or some sort of illness I could contract. I'm around exposed to bodily fluids all the time, inmates fight and leave blood everywhere, inmates throw bodily fluids at staff, they could have a small cut and use a piece of clothing to bandage it, there are really endless ways a person in my situation could have an exposure to a serious illness.
As such, I have taken every vaccination and I use every percaussion I can in order to protect myself from being exposed. Most jails even have a 'cocktail' that exposed people can take if needed as well. Some people here are saying that "talking about reducing risk factors takes away from the culpability of the perpetrators of the crime' well, does this apply to my situation? If an inmate assaults me and he has hepatitis, and I contract it, would I have the moral authority to say, "I didn't need to get vaccinated for hepatitis, I should be allowed to work without the risk of being exposed to it."
Yeah I suppose I could, but it doesn't change the reality that I need to do everything I can to protect myself. Of course the victim doesn't deserve to be blamed, but there is nothing wrong with taking precautions, it's the smart thing to do. A woman should be allowed to wear 'provocative' clothing and be able to go out and live her life, but maybe putting herself in a situation like going to a house party full of shady men, by herself, and getting black out drunk would be a bad decision on her part.
Also the two notions of doing what you can to protect yourself, and doing what we can to stop men from sexually assaulting women are not mutually exclusive. As a society we should be educating people on how to mitigate the risk of being a victim of a sexual assault, and at the same time stopping men from sexually assaulting women. Nothing wrong with doing both.
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As I see it, the problem with the original question in the poll is that it (a) muddles the concepts of risk and blame; and (b) gives a platform for people to state that the victim can be responsible in any way.
Debating what the risk factors are, whether studies are statistically sound or not, what patterns exist amongst rapists and rape occurrences... these are all important debates to have (although personally I find reading rape-related stats one of the most depressing things imaginable, and I'm normally a stats junky).
But one of the first problems that we need to tackle is that rape is severely underreported. Solve this, and prosecution of rapists goes up, repeat offences go down, and our understanding of the scope and nature of the problem increases.
And the most basic thing that we can do to help solve this is to be absolutely unequivocal in stating that the victim is never to blame, and never takes a share of the blame, regardless of any factor. Whether they share blame is never an appropriate question to ask, even as a strawman or a rhetorical device or (especially) as an attempt to generate web-traffic and conversation, as I must imagine the CHED poll must have been.
The goal needs to be a society where all of these risk factors become irrelevant, where a woman never needs to wonder if certain decisions increase her risk. It's going to be a long road to get there: it needs to be reported more, it needs to be prosecuted better, and we need to do a better job of understanding and eliminating the factors that create and embolden potential rapists.
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If the poll were:
Do you think victims of sexual assault share any blame for what happens?
- No
- Yes
I would be 100% "No". It would be the only answer I'd find acceptable.
If the poll were:
Which statement did you agree with:
- “Women should be able to dress, drink and walk as they choose without fear of being blamed.”
- “If women drink too much, dress too little or walk in harms way, they put themselves at risk.”
Then I'd see both as valid choices.
Because the poll is a blend of the two, I'd still pick "No", but I can see people being swayed to pick "Yes" because the explanation for "Yes" is a statement that they (and I) agree with.
It's a bit like if the poll were:
5+5=9?
- No, 2+2=4
- Yes, 3+3=6
The answer is "No", but 3+3 does equal 6. And in this analogy, the structure of the poll is a lot more clear. This is why I feel that the 35% who picked "Yes" are not necessarily "awful", and why the indignation towards the station is an overreaction.
No SebC, it's the internet and you were chosen to be the monster by a few usual suspect posters on this board. That's the extent. You're a decent fellow.
Would you like her to go out to the club that alcohol will be consumed wearing this.
NSFW!
Or This?
The latter. But because I want her to have self respect, not because I want her protect herself from rapists.
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This is a video showing girls hitting on guys like guys hit on girls. Posted here because the last line in the video is very apt for this thread.
If we're going to go down that road...
The women who treat getting hit on like it's assault are missing the point completely. A guy who hits on you is not threatening to rape you, he's asking for consent. It's not "rape culture", it's "consent culture".
Not that there aren't any "pick ups" that are actually assaults, but simply attempting to pick up a woman is not violation of her person, yet I've certainly seen it treated as such. That only discourages men from asking, which is conterproductive to creating a culture of consent.
I'm with SebC here honestly. (On his initial point)
“if women drink too much, dress too little or walk in harms way, they put themselves at risk.”
Notice that the poll doesn't say "it's their fault" or "if a woman does these things, she is responsible for the consequences." It says that if a woman does these things, she is more likely to be victimized.
It's kind of analogous to bullying. If a kid is small, a bit timid, has few friends and doesn't stand up for himself, he is more likely to be bullied right? http://www.stopbullying.gov/at-risk/factors/
No one would say that the bullies aren't at fault or that the kid is responsible for the actions of the bullies, (for enticing the bullies or something dumb like that,) but there are risk factors that do affect whether or not kids get bullied.
Telling an overweight kid that it's his fault he got bullied is wrong. Saying that obesity raises a childs risk of being bullied is flat out true.
Likewise, being drunk, wearing provocative clothing and going down dark alleys in the wrong part of town are things that will put a woman at a higher risk of rape. No one's happy about that but it's true.
tl;dr the poll is what's bad here. Both options are true becauseA)no matter the circumstance, the victim is not to blame, women should be able to get hammered, wear skimpy clothing and go down any ally she pleases at any time of night she damn well wants to, but B)getting wasted, wearing provocative clothing or "walking in harms way" are all things that would raise a womans chance of being raped.
On a topic like this I really hope I've been clear enough.
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Last edited by TheDebaser; 04-14-2014 at 12:18 AM.
Would you like her to go out to the club that alcohol will be consumed wearing this.
NSFW!
Or This?
Dressing like the former where it is not appropriate to do so contributes to rape in the same way leaving your door unlocked contributes to theft. In both cases, the perpetrator is 100% at fault, but not taking precautions means that the victim contributed but is not to blame.
However, I would prefer my hypothetical daughter to dress as is appropriate for the situation. On the beach that is probably more like the first picture and to a house party, more like the second. Regardless of how she dresses, however, it is not her fault if someone rapes her, nor is she to blame in any way.
There's no real evidence to state that dressing provocatively puts one at greater risk or encourages rape or assault.
However drinking excessively would definitely put women at greater risk and can lead to bad situations based on bad judgement calls and unsafe decisions. It doesn't even have to be the example of rape. People do dumb and unsafe stuff when they drink excessively. As well, drinking can encourage bad or even illegal behavior in the people around said person.
This is not to suggest that anyone deserves to be raped (or stabbed or beaten or anything else) if they over indulge even to an irresponsible degree. But risky behavior is just that. Risky.
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The women who treat getting hit on like it's assault are missing the point completely. A guy who hits on you is not threatening to rape you, he's asking for consent. It's not "rape culture", it's "consent culture".
Not that there aren't any "pick ups" that are actually assaults, but simply attempting to pick up a woman is not violation of her person, yet I've certainly seen it treated as such. That only discourages men from asking, which is conterproductive to creating a culture of consent.
It's like this in a work environment as well. How many people have married because of their work environment? No really, I'm asking! If someone says no, the person asking moves along. It's that simple and pretty much the understood unwritten underlined unresistant rule.
Of course I'm not talking about productivity in a work environment here...
Dressing like the former where it is not appropriate to do so contributes to rape in the same way leaving your door unlocked contributes to theft. In both cases, the perpetrator is 100% at fault, but not taking precautions means that the victim contributed but is not to blame.
However, I would prefer my hypothetical daughter to dress as is appropriate for the situation. On the beach that is probably more like the first picture and to a house party, more like the second. Regardless of how she dresses, however, it is not her fault if someone rapes her, nor is she to blame in any way.
Hey, I believe you can dress anyway you want and walk around completely unmolested. However, the world we live in has some pretty dark people in it and I would prefer to have my daughter to not attract any kind of attention that the former picture would bring. When alcohol is involved people make stupid assumptions and decisions which can then lead to terrible actions. Acting smart and making smart decisions is what is most important.
In fact, both of those statements are true. In a perfect world, what a women drinks or wears and where she goes would not increase the likelihood that she gets victimized. In the real world, those are risk factors that she controls.
If I go walking down a dark alley in a sketchy part of night, I'm not literally asking to get mugged, nor is it my fault if I do, but I certainly made my odds worse by doing what I did.
Pretending that these risk factors don't exist is actually harmful to society. People need to know about the risks they're taking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest
Rape is wrong. Who here doesn't agree to this?
You now have a daughter.
Would you like her to go out to the club that alcohol will be consumed wearing this.
NSFW!
Or This?
Late to the party, but I have to bring this up...
It's guys like you and Toronto's Constable Michael Sanguinetti who believe what a female is wearing has a factor on being victims of violent crimes.
Heard of something called "Slutwalk"?
Its an annual international rally that was started in 2011 because women offended by Sanguinetti's comments in a Campus Safety forum claiming
"women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized"
over 3000 has shown up for the first rally in Toronto
while what you claim is less extreme than Sanguinetti has said, but is in line with the victim blaming belief.
It's not so much wardrobe that is a factor, but behaviour. Excessive, and irresponsible drinking has certainly blurred the distinctions as to what constitutes sexual assault.
It's not so much wardrobe that is a factor, but behaviour. Excessive, and irresponsible drinking has certainly blurred the distinctions as to what constitutes sexual assault.
Because raping a drunk girl falls into the grey area of what's considered criminal activity?
If someone says no, the person asking moves along. It's that simple and pretty much the understood unwritten underlined unresistant rule. 
