Ukraine Presidential Crackdown Violence. Russia Invades Ukraine

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Locke

Hell, most of the Ukrainians I deal with on a constant basis are chest-thumping pro-Ukraine people who have never been within 3000 miles of Kiev.

Sounds like 90% of North American Italians.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by nik-

Sounds like 90% of North American Italians.

Or Irish. I see a lot of people in Canada identify as Irish but I have met very few that have actual visited Ireland. I love how visible Irish culture is in Canada though. It's a wonderful thing.

Personally, I don't think it matters. You are what you feel.

For the record, I have been to Croatia/Bosnia many times and identify myself as one in Canada, but I would NEVER say anything bad about Canada. I also know many Ukrainian Canadians and have never heard Canada bashing from them.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Its just a bunch of criminals taking power in the Ukraine. Yes I agree the previous government was corrupt, but this is so much worse.
Watch those peacful protestors for yourself:
*warning: might be some shocking images.

You mean those police officers that were shooting unarmed people? Yah, I'd be pissed too and taking it out on them too.

[worth]

I don't know that this is really classified as a "protest" anymore. This is more of a revolution. There aren't really many peaceful revolutions and I wouldn't really expect the general civilian population to be peaceful after what has taken place the past week.

[nik-]

Yeah, the protest stopped when the government security forces started killing people. It then became a borderline revolution. If you have the forces supposed to be protecting the citizenry denying fundamental rights of a democracy (as faux as it is), and then killing the people exercising those rights, there may be some firebombs tossed. When old people watch what's happening and decide they need to go to fight for their youth, you know it's not just a protest.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Or Irish. I see a lot of people in Canada identify as Irish but I have met very few that have actual visited Ireland. I love how visible Irish culture is in Canada though. It's a wonderful thing.

Personally, I don't think it matters. You are what you feel.

For the record, I have been to Croatia/Bosnia many times and identify myself as one in Canada, but I would NEVER say anything bad about Canada. I also know many Ukrainian Canadians and have never heard Canada bashing from them.

Yeah, a lot of my family identify as part Irish because my grandfather's family came from Dublin. I don't tell them different because they were too young to know my grandfather but he was an Orangeman (Scots) who hated the Irish. Myself, I'm a little ashamed of the whole history but knowing the real background of peoples would probably change some outlooks.

[Minnie]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Its just a bunch of criminals taking power in the Ukraine. Yes I agree the previous government was corrupt, but this is so much worse.
Watch those peacful protestors for yourself:

Go protestors.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by JonDuke

Here's a schwackload of pics from inside the President's compound.

More here: http://zyalt.livejournal.com/1007568.html

WTF? The guy had his own private galleon, private zoo, gold bars and hovercraft? I understand now how modern Czars like Putin want to stay in power and how loads of people view them as corrupt

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by PIMking

You mean those police officers that were shooting unarmed people? Yah, I'd be pissed too and taking it out on them too.

By unarmed you mean holding a moltov bottle in your hands? or perhaps fireworks? or a rifle? that you are about to shoot at the police officer.

Also if you take a look those officers don't have any weapons aside from clubs. Think for a second who would benefit the most if the officers started to shoot people? The opposition of course...

Also don't believe every picture you see in the media, because if that many officers really started shooting then the demonstration would be over pretty quickly. In fact the negotiations themselves were in order to prevent any extra blood spilled. I am not even sure how many of those shootings were instigated by the police.

Finally, those were not peacful protestors, they came to Kiev for a reason(most of them weren't residents of the city). If I was as poor as some of those people claim, how would I be able to stand and protest for three months? where would I get an income? how would I feed my children? and what job would want to keep me after? The front lines of protestors are not simple rioters, they were(are) trained and paid men.

There is a lot of money involved especially for the leaders of the opposition, and guess what for europe as well. I just find it funny that people only see one side of the story. A lot of people in Ukraine would actually prefer to keep the current government. They are just not crazy enough to protest for it and then be shot, or hit by the same thugs that hit those policeman.

If you would like more detailed examples, arguments, and proof I am willing to give it.

-Someone that lives in Ukraine half of each year

[PIMking]

I can tell you that if I was in the shoes of the people of Kiev I would be doing the same damn thing.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by Locke

Yup. I constantly hear all about the awesome Ukraine from my wife's side of the family but I never see anyone buying any tickets home.

The last time my wife's family had to visit Ukraine, they came back and explicitly told me "Do not go to Ukraine".

[saskflames69]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

The last time my wife's family had to visit Ukraine, they came back and explicitly told me "Do not go to Ukraine".

I have third cousins still living in Western Ukraine and have Skyped with a few of the ones that speak English.

Haven't heard from them since 2012 but I recall one of them saying something about a shortage of food. They also said how they desperately wanted to leave the country and come to Canada.

[OffsideSpecialist]

I had actually heard some great things about Lviv and other parts of Ukraine during the summer. I had been thinking about considering it for a trip in the future. Obviously there must be a reason all the people of Ukrainian ancestry I know have never been there.

Eastern Europe has always fascinated me though, so I may still yet go there. Just not now obviously.

[Brannigans Law]

edit: not worth it.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by OffsideSpecialist

I had actually heard some great things about Lviv and other parts of Ukraine during the summer. I had been thinking about considering it for a trip in the future. Obviously there must be a reason all the people of Ukrainian ancestry I know have never been there.

Eastern Europe has always fascinated me though, so I may still yet go there. Just not now obviously.

It is a very pretty city. I was born there, so I am a bit biased, but you should definitely go see it one day. Hopefully some statues remain by the time the revolution is done.

[Itse]

It's been a revolution for at least a month, if you ask the demonstrators. It's funny now how nobody in the west seemed to take those people seriously then. If it gets done with the casualties being in the low hundreds, historically speaking that's a low price.


There are not a lot of guarantees that this will actually improve the situation, and there's lots of talk about Ukraine perhaps splitting in two. A lot will happen in the next days, months and years.

Still, so far I'm actually happily surprised with the way it has gone. You have to be realistic about this stuff, this could have been much, much worse.

[Itse]

These are not confimed sources, take it for what it is.

- Yanukovitsh apparently never arrived in Kharkiv, but instead has fled into Arab Emirates (or somewhere in that direction) along with other members of the former government. This is somewhat interesting, as they could have just as easily fled to Russia. Probably Russia wouldn't have them, for what ever reason.

- Toppling Lenin-statues is popular right now.

- There are criminal investigations against governors of Kharkiv and some other place (multiple translations issue + lack of knowledge on Ukrainian geography) for suspected separatism. Both army troops and assumedly president supporting miners are marching towards Kharkiv.

- Formerly relatively peaceful Eastern Ukraine has seen demonstrations demanding civil rights etc, much in the same way as in Kiev.

- Foreign negotiating partners from Poland have "confirmed" (again, I'm not getting this from confirmed sources) that no promises of immunity against criminal investigation have been granted to former government members.

- There are fears of Russian military takeover of Crimea.

[Brannigans Law]

If Russia rolls tanks into Crimea that's kind of a big deal and could have enormous implications. I think a peaceful split of Western Ukraine and Eastern Ukraine is ideal; eastern Ukrainians are more Russian anyways. Let them have their own capital in Donetsk and be a puppet state for the Russians or go full Russia.

[Arsenal14]

Originally Posted by Brannigans Law

I think a peaceful split of Western Ukraine and Eastern Ukraine is ideal; eastern Ukrainians are more Russian anyways. Let them have their own capital in Donetsk and be a puppet state for the Russians or go full Russia.

It is and it isn't. The Eastern side is where the Soviets located all of the industries for the region while the western portion remains almost completely agrarian. I suspect a split would lead to the east being absorbed into Russia and the west being a very poor country with dreams of being accepted by the EU. Of course, other than the Crimea and the farthest east provinces even the "Russian" east is still primarily Ukrainian speaking and has large numbers that self-identify as Ukrainian.

[PIMking]

How much different is the Ukrainian language compared to Russian?