Who's your coach?

[strombad]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

There is a real danger in keeping Hartley:

1) Veteran UFA's will likely not want to sign with the Flames to play for Hartley.

2) The Flames will tank again and get another lottery pick. That might seem to be a good idea.... 3 top picks in a row.... but that is getting close to the Oiler scenario and it might be hard to stop at 3.


I think there was a reason that Hartley was not in the NHL for 6 years.

Your danger is about as "real" as the RGI is "accurate"

I mean come on, tanking? Let me put it out there, if the Flames ACTUALLY tanked last year and are ACTUALLY tanking this year, then colour me completely PO'd. They can't even TANK properly.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

1) Veteran UFAs do not like to sign for rebuilding teams, period. As far as I know, Hartley has a pretty good reputation as a player's coach - tough, but fair. Tanguay - who has had a bit of a history with coaches and pouting - loved him and wanted him aboard. Every coach has certain players that love him, certain players that don't. You don't base your decision on who to hire as a coach because 'x' players that aren't even on your team like him.

2) Tanking? Tanking? What have you been watching?? Please watch more Flames games rather than just looking at the standings please. This is a tank-job on paper ONLY. The team plays hard - which is why you are seeing so much Hartley support this thread.

Tanking.... lol ... oh you!!

Tanguay basically quit on his buddy. He liked him a lot better when there was Roy, Sakic, Fosberg Bourque and Blake on the team.

When did you first understand that the Flames 1st round pick in the 2015 would be top 6?

This is a clear cut example of an organization tanking.

The Flames are playing a guy with a near league worst -22 almost 20 minutes a game and giving him PP time while he is scoring at a 4th line rate.

They are playing 2 27-year old basically rookie Euro goalies

The Flames have lost 16 games by 2 or more goals ...

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

I hope Hartley sticks around. He's not Burke's guy so I would have said no chance he is here next year but now I am not sure.

I don't know why people get offended at the suggestion the flames are tanking. Of course they are. The roster is designed to lose and has been since this time last year. The biggest difference between the 2013-2014 flames and 2011-2012 oilers is tanking has gotten more competitive.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

1) Veteran UFAs do not like to sign for rebuilding teams, period. As far as I know, Hartley has a pretty good reputation as a player's coach - tough, but fair. Tanguay - who has had a bit of a history with coaches and pouting - loved him and wanted him aboard. Every coach has certain players that love him, certain players that don't. You don't base your decision on who to hire as a coach because 'x' players that aren't even on your team like him.

2) Tanking? Tanking? What have you been watching?? Please watch more Flames games rather than just looking at the standings please. This is a tank-job on paper ONLY. The team plays hard - which is why you are seeing so much Hartley support this thread.

Tanking.... lol ... oh you!!

I agree with everything you said. There have been no indications that any of the players have a problem playing for Hartley. If anything, we seem to be re-signing players lately.

If the team tried this hard as they did while we still had a productive Iginla, Bouwmeester and Kiprusoff, they would have been a playoff team. This isn't a team that has given up at all. It's just a team that lacks a lot of mature talent.

[868904]

This team still doesn't support the puck enough for me, especially the forwards on the breakout, so I'm not sure I like Hartley's system. It's entertaining and it doesn't bother me that much since wins aren't expected but I can see it being frustrated when it starts to matter again.

However, Hartley deserves an extension for single handidly sparking the rivalry with the Canucks. It always bothered me how over the past few seasons, the Canucks would roll in here and just toy with the Flames and the Flames would just take it. It was a really abusive relationship, like a pimp and his least favourite whore. I dont know how Brent Sugter allowed that to happen, because Darryl sure as hell would not have allowedd it. Hartley pretty much told the Canucks, "we're not your butch anymore!" And for that he deserves an extension.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Tanguay basically quit on his buddy. He liked him a lot better when there was Roy, Sakic, Fosberg Bourque and Blake on the team.

When did you first understand that the Flames 1st round pick in the 2015 would be top 6?

This is a clear cut example of an organization tanking.

The Flames are playing a guy with a near league worst -22 almost 20 minutes a game and giving him PP time while he is scoring at a 4th line rate.

They are playing 2 27-year old basically rookie Euro goalies

The Flames have lost 16 games by 2 or more goals ...

I understood this the moment Feaster announced they were rebuilding last year - thanks for the reaffirmation.

Now tanking - let's talk about this Ricardow.

This thread is about Hartley. Hartley does not make trades, correct? Hartley does not sign players, correct? It is irrelevant to say that the on-ice talent level proves in any way that Hartley is tanking. The organization is rebuilding, and rebuilds are of course 'designed to fail' in a number of ways - and that is another argument in terms of tanking.

This thread is about the Coach - Bob Hartley.

Now, I can only assume you watch Flames games. Can you say with a straight face that Hartley is helping in any way to intentionally tank?

"Tanking" teams don't give much effort. They don't sit healthy-scratch highly thought of rookies (who the crowd wants to see, but who usually make rookie mistakes costing their team).

Hartley has done nothing in his tenure thus far to suggest he is in any way tanking.

Your cherry-picking stats has NOTHING to do with Hartley 'tanking'. When did you first understand that rebuilding teams have many poor stats to show?

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by 868904

This team still doesn't support the puck enough for me, especially the forwards on the breakout, so I'm not sure I like Hartley's system. It's entertaining and it doesn't bother me that much since wins aren't expected but I can see it being frustrated when it starts to matter again.

However, Hartley deserves an extension for single handidly sparking the rivalry with the Canucks. It always bothered me how over the past few seasons, the Canucks would roll in here and just toy with the Flames and the Flames would just take it. It was a really abusive relationship, like a pimp and his least favourite whore. I dont know how Brent Sugter allowed that to happen, because Darryl sure as hell would not have allowedd it. Hartley pretty much told the Canucks, "we're not your butch anymore!" And for that he deserves an extension.

I like watching the Flames team play (usually) this season. They are not very boring.

With that being said, I wonder if this system is the 'correct' one for the team moving forward, but it just doesn't have enough horses to make it work. I am not sure if the correct approach would be to turn this team into a more defensive-minded one who has more trouble scoring goals and playing creatively (have to wonder what that does to the confidence of the kids coming in) or being too 'loose' and turning into Edmonton.

I am not saying it is right or wrong, better or worse. I am actually wondering what would be an ideal type of system for a rebuilding club that needs to teach and stay respectable to avoid that losing culture, even if losing is inevitable, given the talent level of the club.

[the_only_turek_fan]

Hartley for now....but soon Troy Ward.

[mikeecho]

With Burke likely not hiring a GM until the summer, I think Hartley sticks around for at least next season. That gives the new GM a chance to work with him for a year where expectations on team performance (vis a vis wins) are low so there is no risk in the status quo. After the 2014-15 season, the new GM will determine if Hartley is the guy moving forward.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by mikeecho

With Burke likely not hiring a GM until the summer, I think Hartley sticks around for at least next season. That gives the new GM a chance to work with him for a year where expectations on team performance (vis a vis wins) are low so there is no risk in the status quo. After the 2014-15 season, the new GM will determine if Hartley is the guy moving forward.

That's a possibility. Another possibility is that soon after the season the entire coaching staff is let go. All Burke has said so far is that the current staff will remain until the end of the season and after that all bets are off. He's not a guy that would drag things out if he didn't want the current staff going forward as he would want them to have ample opportunity to find employment. Nothing would surprise me but a lot will have to do with the incoming GM. If he has a guy in mind he wants to go with then he's going to go with that guy.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by mikeecho

With Burke likely not hiring a GM until the summer, I think Hartley sticks around for at least next season. That gives the new GM a chance to work with him for a year where expectations on team performance (vis a vis wins) are low so there is no risk in the status quo. After the 2014-15 season, the new GM will determine if Hartley is the guy moving forward.

That would be because the new GM would not have his own coach? If Hartley was a top choice of any of the new GMs over the last 7 years other than his non-hockey buddy from Hershey. He would have been coaching somewhere in the NHL or at least affiliated with some NHL organization.

Do you think that if and when Burke decides that he should be GM he won't want his own coach? and that Hartley would be his first choice?

well I will hedge my comment... maybe Burke will re-hire Feaster as GM and then Hartley stays.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

That would be because the new GM would not have his own coach? If Hartley was a top choice of any of the new GMs over the last 7 years other than his non-hockey buddy from Hershey. He would have been coaching somewhere in the NHL or at least affiliated with some NHL organization.

Do you think that if and when Burke decides that he should be GM he won't want his own coach? and that Hartley would be his first choice?

well I will hedge my comment... maybe Burke will re-hire Feaster as GM and then Hartley stays.

With the dearth of (top end) talent that Calgary possesses, it is, honestly,
difficult to imagine that anyone else could draw water from a stone the way Hartley has this season.

The change of culture to that of hard work and heartfelt determination, that was missing for several seasons, is attributable in large part to him.

[Buck Murdock]

Head coach - Marc crawford
Assistant coach - Ron Wilson
Assistant coach - Greg Gilbert
Assistant coach - Don Hay
goalie coach - Mike Keenan
Strength and conditioning - John Tortorella

[puckedoff]

I like Hartley so I hope they keep him. He has the team playing at 100% each night and that will be the difference between a 4 year rebuild an an Oiler-style re-tank.
If we had some talent on the club it would be different but at this point I think its more about how they play than whether they are winning.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Tanguay basically quit on his buddy. He liked him a lot better when there was Roy, Sakic, Fosberg Bourque and Blake on the team.

When did you first understand that the Flames 1st round pick in the 2015 would be top 6?

This is a clear cut example of an organization tanking.

The Flames are playing a guy with a near league worst -22 almost 20 minutes a game and giving him PP time while he is scoring at a 4th line rate.

They are playing 2 27-year old basically rookie Euro goalies

The Flames have lost 16 games by 2 or more goals ...

Wow, don't let your opinion of Hartley cloud facts.

Unless you equate bad to tanking, (which is incorrect anyway) the team isn't tanking. Yeah we're bad, but we're where we should be. Better probably. Effort is there. No one on the coach or players side is tanking.

If you looking at the organization then probably yes, they are limiting high end players for a better pick this year and next, but that has nothing to do with Hartley anyway, and is what most of the city wanted anyway.

I seriously don't know what your on about. You don't like Hartley, that's fine, there's a few that don't and while I do, I wouldn't say he's prevented anyone questioning him. There's pros and cons for sure. But the stuff you're throwing out is crazy. It doesn't make sense.

[mikeecho]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

That would be because the new GM would not have his own coach? If Hartley was a top choice of any of the new GMs over the last 7 years other than his non-hockey buddy from Hershey. He would have been coaching somewhere in the NHL or at least affiliated with some NHL organization.

The new GM is gonna roll into Calgary in July/August and there isn't any pressure for the team to make it or break it next year. That's why I don't think they make a last minute coaching change before training camp starts.

If the new GM does want to bring in his own guy, it would mean that
1) the guy is currently out of work already, which may not even be the case;
2) The guy is out of work, which means he's likely on par with Hartley based on what's out there already; or
3) we're getting a rookie/inexperienced head coach.

Either way, I think the new GM waits it out until the situation is better suited for his guy to come in and have success. I don't think you rush a new coach into running an AHL calibre bench for the next 3 years unless you see things that are horribly wrong with the existing coach (and Burke seems to think Hartley is doing things the right way) or you are prepared to fire the guy you just hired in 3 years right before the Flames are ready to turn the corner.

Hiring a new coach asap, runs the risk of seeing the team take a step back (like it is in Edmonton) considering the current coach is making more with this roster than anyone thought was humanly possible. That puts more pressure on the new GM, and people don't like to put themselves on the hot seat if they don't have to. Hartley is going to allow the new GM to come in and keep the status quo, while focusing on the draft, developing prospects, etc... Inevitably, Hartley will go in favour of someone the new GM picks, but I don't think it happens before the 2014-15 off season. That gives the new coach about 2 years to develop the rebuilding Flames into his mould before we realistically start to expect results.

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Do you think that if and when Burke decides that he should be GM he won't want his own coach? and that Hartley would be his first choice?

I take Burke at his word. If he was going to be the GM, he wouldn't go through a dog and pony show. He would have made himself the GM already, which reverts back to my points above re: what I think the new GM will do.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Buck Murdock

Head coach - Marc crawford
Assistant coach - Ron Wilson
Assistant coach - Greg Gilbert
Assistant coach - Don Hay
goalie coach - Mike Keenan
Strength and conditioning - John Tortorella

No, to all of that. If Wilson and Tortorella get any where near employment of the Flames something bad might happen to the management office.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

This year Hartley has basically got a team that has about half the team that is solid NHLers. The other half are bubble players and likely would have trouble catching on with another NHL team. It is relatively easy to get these guys to play hard as the 500k plus money they are making is real world money......

This year Hartley got an under talented team and for the most part they have performed as they were expected.... 27th in payroll and 28th in performance.

The scary thing was last year where Hartley had one of the highest paid teams (basically right to the cap) in the league and had them in 26th spot when Iginla got traded.

He doesn't get near enough of the best (highest paid financial secure) players to play up to their contracts.

Out of the Flames highest paid forwards:
Cammalleri, Mike
Hudler, Jiri
Jones, David
Stajan, Matt
Glencross, Curtis
Stempniak, Lee

There is only Hudler that is actually playing up to his salary this year.... He didn't last year.

On defense Wideman and Smid are not playing up to their salaries... SOB definitely did not.

Gio and Brodie are.

Out of 11 Flames making more than 2M / year only 3
Hudler, Gio and Brodie are playing up to their salaries and Brodie is on his first big contract and not set for life yet.

It is always a fall back that Hartley (along with all failing coaches) say that their best players have to be the best players... The good coaches work to make this happen.

Hartley is not a good coach.

So you are essentially suggesting that a coach should be rated on the production he gets from his players as a function of their salary.

Even though he a) doesn't get to choose what players are given to him, and (more importantly) b) he is not involved in any way with how much they get paid.

That is even more ridiculous than the RGI fiasco