Muslim student requests no contact with females at martial arts class

[CaptainCrunch]

Geez I have enough problems with woman wanting to mix with me, and this guy doesn't want to mix with woman?

Stupid

[Daradon]

The solution is pretty easy which I think Canada, for the most part, is getting right.

Efforts must be made to respect different faiths, as long as it doesn't interfere with basic human rights and laws. (And of course, in the case of laws or regulations, sometimes they need to be looked at again, and revised)

In this case, the instructor or whomever is in charge got it wrong. As other rights are being infringed on. One person, no matter what their faith (or story) is shouldn't be able to infringe on others rights or have their put above others.

But in a lot of other stories I've heard around Canada, people seem to be getting it right.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Ark2

How is this any different than women only sections in gyms? No one seems to have any issue accommodating that. Also, for what it's worth, I believe that this story is real. In Ontario they were talking about a similar story last week where an online student advised his professor that he would not be able to attend an in person focus group for the course due to the fact that there would be women there and that was against his religion.

Surely you can see the difference between a gym that is - from the start - a "Women Only" or "Men Only" gym, and me waltzing into a co-ed establishment and demanding them to segregate the genders to appease my religious delusions.

[OzSome]

I am not a fan of people moving to this country and think they can do whatever they wish. The problem is us Canadians are way too polite and does not want to offend anyone...which is crap. When I moved to this country a long time ago, everything that I used to do or grown up to do are pretty much thrown out. I feel that in order to fit in, I should do what people in this country do. In the past decade, it's sickening that these morons who are moving to this country thinks they can get away with everything. One religion says school shouldn't pray or play the national anthem because it is against their religion. Others thinks there shouldn't be any christmas play at school. Then there's this crap about this muslim men joining a co-ed martial art class and refused to work out with women??? He knew it is a mixed class, so why even join in. If I am the instructor, i would kick this bozo out of this class. what's next??

[scottish_flame]

Originally Posted by OzSome

I am not a fan of people moving to this country and think they can do whatever they wish. The problem is us Canadians are way too polite and does not want to offend anyone...which is crap. When I moved to this country a long time ago, everything that I used to do or grown up to do are pretty much thrown out. I feel that in order to fit in, I should do what people in this country do. In the past decade, it's sickening that these morons who are moving to this country thinks they can get away with everything. One religion says school shouldn't pray or play the national anthem because it is against their religion. Others thinks there shouldn't be any christmas play at school. Then there's this crap about this muslim men joining a co-ed martial art class and refused to work out with women??? He knew it is a mixed class, so why even join in. If I am the instructor, i would kick this bozo out of this class. what's next??

My thoughts exactly. I expect the left wing guys to be around shortly to be offended at your post tho

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by OzSome

I am not a fan of people moving to this country and think they can do whatever they wish. The problem is us Canadians are way too polite and does not want to offend anyone...which is crap. When I moved to this country a long time ago, everything that I used to do or grown up to do are pretty much thrown out. I feel that in order to fit in, I should do what people in this country do. In the past decade, it's sickening that these morons who are moving to this country thinks they can get away with everything. One religion says school shouldn't pray or play the national anthem because it is against their religion. Others thinks there shouldn't be any christmas play at school. Then there's this crap about this muslim men joining a co-ed martial art class and refused to work out with women??? He knew it is a mixed class, so why even join in. If I am the instructor, i would kick this bozo out of this class. what's next??

The important thing to consider is that these people are in the small minority. We hear about the ones that want to adjust the standard to suit their beliefs, but the majority understand that since they live here, they choose to adjust to it. For some, it's the reason they chose to come here.

[FlamesAllTheWay]

I highly doubt the man didn't know that he would be in contact with females prior to taking the class. Yet he chose to take it anyways.

Stuff like this can sometimes get complicated but this particular case seems pretty cut and dry to me - Spar with the ladies or don't take the class. Pretty simple.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by OzSome

I am not a fan of people moving to this country and think they can do whatever they wish. The problem is us Canadians are way too polite and does not want to offend anyone...which is crap. When I moved to this country a long time ago, everything that I used to do or grown up to do are pretty much thrown out. I feel that in order to fit in, I should do what people in this country do. In the past decade, it's sickening that these morons who are moving to this country thinks they can get away with everything. One religion says school shouldn't pray or play the national anthem because it is against their religion. Others thinks there shouldn't be any christmas play at school. Then there's this crap about this muslim men joining a co-ed martial art class and refused to work out with women??? He knew it is a mixed class, so why even join in. If I am the instructor, i would kick this bozo out of this class. what's next??

I definitely agree. You want to move to Canada? Be Canadian. Come here and adhere to the laws and social norms of the country. Have your religion if you want, but keep it in your home and place of worship. I wonder how these types of Muslim people would feel about me moving to Iraq and start making a big fuss about the funny way women dress, why Christmas isn't celebrated at school, and all they do that is more or less "strange" to an outsider like me. Pretty sure I would end up in prison or worse.

You move here to be free of your persecution and what not, then assimilate yourself to the society you choose, dont try and make it change for you.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I definitely agree. You want to move to Canada? Be Canadian. Come here and adhere to the laws and social norms of the country. Have your religion if you want, but keep it in your home and place of worship. I wonder how these types of Muslim people would feel about me moving to Iraq and start making a big fuss about the funny way women dress, why Christmas isn't celebrated at school, and all they do that is more or less "strange" to an outsider like me. Pretty sure I would end up in prison or worse.

You move here to be free of your persecution and what not, then assimilate yourself to the society you choose, dont try and make it change for you.

Disagree completely. As the "I am Canadian" beer ad says, "We believe in diversity, NOT assimilation". I agree with "come here and adhere to our laws", but what are these "social norms" that they have to adhere to? Last time I pushed this point I was told that immigrants don't shovel their driveway in winter. Is that what it comes down to? You can come to Canada so long as you shovel your driveway?

I don't expect Muslims that come here to stop watching soccer and start watching hockey. I don't expect them to stop eating their traditional cuisine in favour of burgers and donuts. I don't even expect them to change the way they dress. If a Sikh desires to wear a turban, so be it.

As for keeping your religion in the home or in the place of worship, I don't think that is possible or fair. Why can Christians celebrate their religion outside the home, but Muslims cannot? And religion is what gives people their value systems... how can you ask people to follow their value systems only in their homes and in their place of worship?

In everything, I go back to the Star Trek "Sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one. Sometimes the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many." If the values of a community clash with the laws of Canada, then of course the needs of the majority outweigh the needs of the minority. But if my work team, which includes a Muslim member, wants to go out for a celebratory lunch and I can put the lunch either the day before or the day after Ramadahn starts, I'll put it the day before.

In the case of the guy that doesn't want to take the martial arts class, his needs to not be in a class with women are outweighed by the needs of the women in the class to be treated as equals.

If we can accomodate people with different behaviours and values without infringing on our own rights then we should. Diversity of opinions, ideas, behaviours... they are not things to be curtailed, but rather embraced.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by MattyC

You move here to be free of your persecution and what not, then assimilate yourself to the society you choose, dont try and make it change for you.

Not sure I really agree with the bolded part. I don't think there is anything wrong with challenging the system, or others. That's what a democracy is about. People are free to challenge the segregation of the co-ed class too, which some obviously did.

Then it can be up to the courts to decide whether that request is reasonable or not to accommodate if they want to take it that far.

[Francis's Hairpiece]

Private lessons. They are more expensive, but if you don't want to be part of what is normally the class, then that's the price you pay.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I don't expect Muslims that come here to stop watching soccer and start watching hockey. I don't expect them to stop eating their traditional cuisine in favour of burgers and donuts. I don't even expect them to change the way they dress. If a Sikh desires to wear a turban, so be it.

As for keeping your religion in the home or in the place of worship, I don't think that is possible or fair. Why can Christians celebrate their religion outside the home, but Muslims cannot? And religion is what gives people their value systems... how can you ask people to follow their value systems only in their homes and in their place of worship?

I agree with most of what you say. It is a fine line and yesterday I was in a ranting mood so sorry if it came off a little ignorant. But to these points...

Stuff like wearing a turban is obviously fine, but I remember a story from a few years ago about people in turbans not having to wear helmets while biking. With something like that my view is, the law is the law, and your chosen religion does not exclude you from having to adhere to them. What if my religion is Music, and my bike helmet hurts my ears when my earphones are in. Can I make some big fuss and get to avoid legal obligations as well? Same with the kid who brought his ceremonial dagger to school. You can't bring a weapon to school, sorry. It's just the way it is. You can argue all you want that it's a religious symbol, its still a freaking dagger. Leave it at home. If you don't find that acceptable, move to a society that allows you to carry weapons around.

Maybe social norm was the wrong term. But a guy that shows up at a coed class (coed class being the social norm in Canada), you have to adhere to that norm or find an alternative.

As for keeping religion in the home, I think that should go for all religious sects, not just the "immigrant" ones. Christmas is kind of an odd one, because it has become less and less about Christianity and more about holidays and gift giving. I personally don't really associate it with the church or anything and thats from someone who grew up in a Catholic household. I understand that many, maybe even the majority of people still do celebrate it with Jesus in mind, but I feel it has or is trancending that. Of course you can use your religion to guide your values, that's what religions are supposed to be for, but when you infringe on other peoples rights, too bad, take it somewhere else. If you religious beliefs leave you on the outside looking in in a social situation (like the coed class example), it is not up to everyone to conform to you. Religion should not be governing anything, and I understand that these people come from a culture where it does (and it still does to an extent here which is probably a debate for a different day), but laws and norms of society should be guided by what is best for people as human beings, not whats best for Muslims, Christians, Hebrews, etc...

In this case, the guy's religious beliefs completely fly in the face of what is socially acceptable in this country. If you don't like it, leave. If you want to live here and be peaceful and have your religion then great, but understand that your religion is for you, and not anyone else.

[puckluck2]

Have you ever thought that it's possible this IS their country?

Now I don't agree with this guy at all as I hate muslims like him but it's ignorant to tell people to leave when you don't even know where they're from.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Have you ever thought that it's possible this IS their country?

Now I don't agree with this guy at all as I hate muslims like him but it's ignorant to tell people to leave when you don't even know where they're from.

Not all immigrants are brown/yellow. Some like myself are white/blond/blue eyed.

[nfotiu]

The fact that it sounds like it is a publicly funded municipal rec center offering the program probably gives them more of a burden to ensure that they offer programs that all their tax payers can partake in. I am not sure how a guy not wanting to spar with the women turns into all the women have to be on the other side of the room though. Also, a lot of people are making it sound like the guy was the one complaining, when it was the woman making the complaint.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Have you ever thought that it's possible this IS their country?

Now I don't agree with this guy at all as I hate muslims like him but it's ignorant to tell people to leave when you don't even know where they're from.

Look I'm not targetting any one specific group. The whole point is these ass-backwards values need to be weeded out somehow. It's not specific to Muslims or Jewish or Christians and it doesn't matter if you're from here or not. If you were born into Canada and feel like it's your right to carry your ceremonial knife around with you, well sorry but it's not within these borders. So you can either adhere to the rules of the place in which you were born/the place you moved to, or you can find a place where they allow you to do those things. Obviously no change/progress can ever be made if there aren't people who fight for the change, but these types of people are fighting for change in wrong direction.

My point is these types of ideologies have no place in governing the majority of people. ESPECIALLY in a place of such wide diversity as Canada. There's just too many different sects to make everyone happy. So IMO you can't just pick and choose and give people special exceptions based on their CHOSEN beliefs.

I hope one day all of these types of people (religious fanatics/extremists, bigots, etc..) will just die off. But it doesn't look to be going that way.

2 of the 4 people I work with in my team are Muslim. One was fasting for Rahmedan (sp?) and my boss one day bought us all lunch forgetting she was fasting. She didn't have some huge freakout/complaint to HR. Honest mistake, sorry. We have many discussions about religion and they both know my views about organized religion, but I don't throw it in their face and they don't throw it mine. Is that too much to ask of everyone?

[V]

I don't think the women had to stand on the other side of the room. It's the physical contact that he's concerned with. I interviewed a Muslim last year who called prior to the interview to let me know if there was a female on the interview panel he wouldn't be able to shake her hand because of his religion.

Was I wrong in instantly writing him off as a candidate? I can't imagine it working out when we're in business, and sales specifically, where there's a lot of hand shaking and plenty of our clients are women.

Turned out he was a terrible interview, and I never would have hired him anyways, but he would have had to be amazing if I was even going to consider him.

[Bmuzyka]

Originally Posted by V

I don't think the women had to stand on the other side of the room. It's the physical contact that he's concerned with. I interviewed a Muslim last year who called prior to the interview to let me know if there was a female on the interview panel he wouldn't be able to shake her hand because of his religion.

Was I wrong in instantly writing him off as a candidate? I can't imagine it working out when we're in business, and sales specifically, where there's a lot of hand shaking and plenty of our clients are women.

Turned out he was a terrible interview, and I never would have hired him anyways, but he would have had to be amazing if I was even going to consider him.

Imagine the gall if you had been female and asking to interview him?

[ernie]

talked to my kids' Sensei last night and brought this up. He said quite clearly that such a student wouldn't be welcome in his dojo. Not because of his religion or "beliefs" per se, though that would contribute but because part of the training and learning a student must do is to spar with with dojo members that are better than you, worse that you, weaker than you, stronger than you, shorter than you, taller than you, younger than you, older than you to not just demonstrate technique but to show you can do so in a safe and controlled manner (i.e. a 12 year old sparring against my 5 year old son. 12 year old is obviously going to win but he has to do so safely, with stricter sparring rules, tighter technique etc.).

In short the training requires you to be trained and help train all members of the dojo (it's quite comical observing a class where my 7 year daughter is sempai and correcting college age guys on how they do push ups, sit ups, basic kicks etc). You know they think it's hilarious as well but she out ranks them so they better keep the giggles silent or face the wrath of the Sensei.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by ernie

talked to my kids' Sensei last night and brought this up. He said quite clearly that such a student wouldn't be welcome in his dojo. Not because of his religion or "beliefs" per se, though that would contribute but because part of the training and learning a student must do is to spar with with dojo members that are better than you, worse that you, weaker than you, stronger than you, shorter than you, taller than you, younger than you, older than you to not just demonstrate technique but to show you can do so in a safe and controlled manner (i.e. a 12 year old sparring against my 5 year old son. 12 year old is obviously going to win but he has to do so safely, with stricter sparring rules, tighter technique etc.).

In short the training requires you to be trained and help train all members of the dojo (it's quite comical observing a class where my 7 year daughter is sempai and correcting college age guys on how they do push ups, sit ups, basic kicks etc). You know they think it's hilarious as well but she out ranks them so they better keep the giggles silent or face the wrath of the Sensei.

Kreese: Fear does not exist in this dojo, does it?
Karate Class: NO, SENSEI!
Kreese: Pain does not exist in this dojo, does it?
Karate Class: NO, SENSEI!
Kreese: Defeat does not exist in this dojo, does it?
Karate Class: NO, SENSEI!

Kreese: Woman do not exist in this dojo do they?
Karate Class BO SENSEI!
Kreese: Excellent hit the showers boys.