Will This City Support A Rebuild?

[CaramonLS]

I honestly don't see why there are a number of people in this thread who are being critical of others for not wanting to continue paying for their tickets at the current price point.

The seats I currently have are a total of 18,000 per year. They saw roughly a 2.5% increase over the last year's price. If someone doesn't want to pay that, I have absolutely no problem with it - I hope that more people decide to cancel their tickets as it would hopefully encourage management to drop their prices ever so slightly.

We all have our own price points for a garbage hockey product, which is usually considerably less than our price point for a good one. This organization is making plenty of money, considerably more than in previous years because of their decision not to spend to the cap. Just like in the good years they can raise prices for me, I would like to see them decrease their prices when they are putting out this steaming pile of crap on the ice.

It has very little to do with supporting the rebuild or not (which I do support), but right now I feel that I am being gouged for a crappy product. The organization could easily drop their prices by 10% and still be making a healthy profit.

[blender]

I have a friend who has been a season ticket holder since 1980. When I was young and naive, in the mid-nineties, I asked him if he would keep his tickets as the team was so bad and didn't look to be improving. He laughed at me and explained how I was too young to remember when Calgary didn't have NHL hockey. Now I live in a city that doesn't have an NHL team, and I know exactly what he was talking about.

[McG]

i think that knowledgeable fans will support a rebuild because it is the correct thing to do. right now, i think that those fans believe that the rebuild is underway and is moving forward well. i know for me, i don't want quick fixes and trades that aren't focused on the future.

others will perhaps be less tolerant; when i hear people phone in and complain about mistakes made by young players it drives me crazy. so i guess those people won't have the patience for a rebuild.

and while one would hate to speak about the oilers, while their fans surely wonder about their own rebuild, the media and fans remain perpetually involved and interested.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

I honestly don't see why there are a number of people in this thread who are being critical of others for not wanting to continue paying for their tickets at the current price point.

I don't believe that's been the sentiment at all. I think everyone has said, more or less, that season ticket holders are free to give up their tickets if they wish, but there are other fans patiently waiting to take their place.

The real criticism is of those who choose not to even cheer for the team, whether it be at home or in the dome, just because they are currently rebuilding.

Either way, I don't think anyone has levelled criticism on someone unwilling to pay 18k for a losing product. Don't pay it, but cheer on your team regardless.

[stampsx2]

After five years of rebuilding the cup's not going to just fall into our lap. Good draft picks will only get you so far, winning is an attitude. Teams like Detroit had it right, using their players they had to their full potential. Sitting around and hoping that draft picks will make us stanley cup champs after five years is a gamble, one that may not neccessarily work (edmonton)

The Columbus blue jacket game was the icing on the cake. It was the most boring flames game i ever watched. What a waste of money.

With the Flames plan to suck for the next five years and the nhl making some very strange moves i'm not wasting any more money. I'll leave it to the fans that have the patience for all of this.

For me personally, the nfl is where it's at.

[The Familia]

Originally Posted by calgarywinning

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but the marketplace disagrees with you. The fact is professional sports and entertainment have millions and millions of fans that vote with their wallets as a form of entertainment. The fact that you sit in judgement of the fans, the league and the marketplace also has nothing to do with this thread. You are not questioning whether the city will support a rebuild of the flames but professional sports as a whole.

You are attempting to subvert the marketplace with your opinion. Doctors, Academics are compensated accordingly and have the free will of choice and determination in their lives. I don't fit into your model but I contribute on a daily basis and am compensated accordingly based on the choices I made in my life and the marketplace. Ranking a hockey player, a professional sport or a league with a doctor, PS or Academic is a useless endeavour because the two are not related. What you really want is control over all of economics of pro sports, the fans and to divert that money to your will.

I guess that's the point. It is sad to see that the marketplace has decided that pro athletes and entertainers should make more than say teachers or doctors. That wasn't always the case. People have it too good this day and age. I also don't believe everyone has complete free will and determination of their lives. Biological deficiencies will dictate certain jobs as will social/cultural upbringing and access to capital.

[The Familia]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

Again this argument holds little weight. Every single professional you listed is funded by tax dollars. You really want to increase the wages of pretty much every public servant out there? Where do you think this money will magically come from? Look inget giving recognition where it's due. Doctors, teachers, cops, nurses, etc. all play vital roles, however if all of these were million dollar jobs our country would be penniless. How's the standard of living going to be then? Also, you have to look at the prerequisites for each job. A armed forces soldier is a very important role, both at home and abroad. But there are little to no prerequisites to join the army. Now there might be an argument that the armed forces is a more important job than a doctor, but a doctor has to have a minimum of 11 years of post secondary just to be a GP. A job that requires higher levels of training will most of the time have better salaries. That's just the way it works in non-dictatorship nations. An exception to this case would be professional athletes and this can be explained by the number of jobs in each career. Take just Calgary, it has maybe 600 or more physicians. There are what, 25 players give or take throughout the season on the team. And those players, despite not needing any additional education, have developed a particular set of skills (Liam Neeson) that very very very few people have in the world. Now add that to the fact that they are employed in an entertainment industry type job that people are willing to pay to see, they make a lot of money. Are they more important than doctors or cops? Of course not. But they have the luck that their skills are something people will pay to see. And again if you think this is unfair, you are under no obligation to support the NHL at all. If none of your money is going towards this "entertainment" why do you care? Maybe we should find out how much the average Calgarian spends on the Flames, and you can donate that amount to the cops, or doctors or teachers unions. I have a public sector health care job and I can't even count how many times I (as part of a team) have saved someone's life. I can even think of 2 instances where I, by myself, saved 2 lives. And I don't think I should be paid more than Mike Cammalleri. Why? Because technically he could take 4 years of schooling and do what I do. No matter how much training/practice/etc. I do, I will never be able to replace him on the Calgary Flames.

I don't agree with that last part you wrote. I believe you should make more than Mike Cammalleri for the services you provide and the lives you have saved. How do you know Mike Cammalleri has the smarts to do what you do? Whose to say he would pass? Can Mike Cammalleri work under the pressure and conditions you do? Don't sell yourself short. There are so few pro hockey players compared to physicians because there are only so many teams and roster spots. There are thousands of players waiting to take the spot of current NHLers that are just as good if not better. Who is to say that current NHLers are actually the best in the world? The amount of politics involved with sports at the pro and minor league level is staggering. I'm willing to bet there is someone skating around a pond in Saskatchewan that could easily surpass Chris Butler yet for whatever reason was not given the shot. You are correct that we would never be able to afford paying public service workers a million dollars each. I don't think they need a million dollars. I also think pro athletes don't need $5 million. I'm curious, are you happy with the current structure of pro sports? Are you happy with ever increasing ticket and merchandise prices? Are you happy that the Saddledome will be demolished not because it is falling apart but rather it lacks 300 private suites and 5000 club seats? I'm not. I'm not going to feed this out of control marketplace. Everyone is welcome to spend their money as they see fit. I just don't want to hear them cry when they eventually get priced out of the marketplace. The rich gets richer so the story goes.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by RedWinger89

As the questions poses, will this city support a rebuilding franchise that is destined to pick last for several years? Remember the last time the Flames were really bad, they needed a campaign to keep them. Could the sellout streak end and attendance reach Phoenix levels?

Last time the Flames couldn't afford to keep it's best players due to the low dollar.

[calgarywinning]

Originally Posted by The Familia

I guess that's the point. It is sad to see that the marketplace has decided that pro athletes and entertainers should make more than say teachers or doctors. That wasn't always the case. People have it too good this day and age. I also don't believe everyone has complete free will and determination of their lives. Biological deficiencies will dictate certain jobs as will social/cultural upbringing and access to capital.

Please, really re-read my post and then compare it to how you talk about the marketplace in contempt. You alone are the judge.

This thread is not about this topic. But I would be curious to know when doctors and teachers were paid more then entertainers, celebrities, sports people.

You are actively placing your ranking importance above others, disregarding constructive feedback. I would say that a tim horton clerk serves just as an important purpose in life at a certain time as a doctor in life at a certain time. That a car salesman becomes equally important and relevant for satisfaction and provide a value. In other words or needs Teachers can repress, cops can be dicks and doctors misdiagnose. I say it is false to put one profession above another, as they are all needed for society to function. Market demand sets the value and the pay rate. That there are exceptional doctors, waiters, hockey players, salespeople that are justified in their pay rate.

So in context of this thread, the flames players are paid in an appropriate manner with how the fans choose, the club chooses, the leagues acceptance and viewership from a massive audience. They have a right to a livelihood and to walk a mile in their own shoes.

[stemit14]

I think that this city will support a rebuild but it's going to be held to a higher standard than the city to the north has given to their team. After watching the futility of the oilers for so long and seeing them no better off now, I think the fans here are going to demand progress.

This is the first year of the rebuild so I think lots of fans are accepting of a rough season and a high draft pick. It's more about what will be expected next year... I don't think the fan base will accept another year of complete futility in 2014-2015. That doesn't mean the team will be expected to make the playoffs, but they will be expected to be picking outside the top eight and to be ready to contend for a playoff spot in 2015-2016.

I think the fans will have enough patience to rebuild and support the rebuild as long as progress is made every season. Of all the great rebuild examples, it's the Blackhawks that seemed to follow that pattern of progress every year and I like to think we are already on track for that same pattern. They drafted toews in 2006 with a 4th overall pick... We drafted Monahan. They drafted Kane with the 1st overall pick in 2007... We will likely draft top 3 this year. They drafted outside the top eight in 2008. They were predicted to be a contender to make the playoffs in 2009 and they did. It was also the year that Keith and Seabrook turned into legit top defensemen. They won a couple playoff rounds that year. In 2010, they won their cup. Progress every year. I know they were a poor team for a few years before 2006 but I consider those years to be equivalent to the flames' last 4 years.

As long as their is progress, the fans will support this rebuild.

[RM14]

I will renew. I feel this organization has good management and very bright future. The Saddledome will not see empty level two seating like the late nineties. The cities economy is all time high level. Corporate support is very high. The team has the budget to retain talent, build and be contenders for decades. If you give your seats up today, you lose the opportunity to have first choice in a new building in 5 years. I honestly believe this organization has the right management pieces in place to build a very solid franchise for years.

[vilzeh]

City probably will, this forum will not.

[Azhouse]

I would way rather watch the current lineup than the likes of Tanguay (among others) floating around aimlessly making $4 mil+/ year.

[zoom]

The Flames were 11-15, through 26 games, last year. Right now they are 9-13-4. Granted they won the next three games (last year), but just putting a little perspective on 'how bad' they are this year.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I have no issues with a rebuild but I do have a problem when it's being handled by one of the worst head coaches in the NHL. I don't like Hartley's management of the players this year at all and we aren't seeing any progression of team defense from last year in fact it's worst as it's gone from 28 to 30th.

you expected the defense to improve with this roster/goal tending...that is asking a lot

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

We all have our own price points for a garbage hockey product, which is usually considerably less than our price point for a good one. This organization is making plenty of money, considerably more than in previous years because of their decision not to spend to the cap. Just like in the good years they can raise prices for me, I would like to see them decrease their prices when they are putting out this steaming pile of crap on the ice.

It has very little to do with supporting the rebuild or not (which I do support), but right now I feel that I am being gouged for a crappy product. The organization could easily drop their prices by 10% and still be making a healthy profit.

What business pre-emptively lowers prices 10% without seeing a significant sales decline to force the price cut? I certainly understand the frustration of seeing a price increase so the team can cut their pay roll. But until sales start to decline I don't think you will see a roll back.

I do hope the Flames commit to bringing some type of value though to the STH, be it concession and merchandise discounts, or the rights to extra playoff tickets when the day comes. It's easy for a fan who never goes to a game to scream rebuild. They don't shell out a dime to watch a team who they expect to lose 60% of the time.

[flamesfever]

Maybe some, who are struggling with the excessive prices paid for players, may consider the following:

1. the large amount of time and money paid by parents to get their kids to the NHL. I spoke with one parent recently, whose son went high in the last draft, who said he had doled out more than $350,000. to get him that far.

2. the high risk of never making it to the NHL, and if they do, of not playing long enough to qualify for a pension.

3. the high risk of serious injury.

4. short careers.

5. delay in education, and ability to make a living after hockey, especially if
they don't make it to the NHL.

6. the large disparity between the few big salaried players and the rest.

7. high taxes and the risk in trying to maintain their capital after
retirement.

[dino7c]

I don't think the Flames can ice this type of roster with these ticket prices for three years or so and not have a drastic reduction in attendance

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I don't think the Flames can ice this type of roster with these ticket prices for three years or so and not have a drastic reduction in attendance

If they are this bad, they stand a good chance to have MmcDavid on their roster by year 3....at which time ticket sales would not be a problem.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

What business pre-emptively lowers prices 10% without seeing a significant sales decline to force the price cut? I certainly understand the frustration of seeing a price increase so the team can cut their pay roll. But until sales start to decline I don't think you will see a roll back.

I do hope the Flames commit to bringing some type of value though to the STH, be it concession and merchandise discounts, or the rights to extra playoff tickets when the day comes. It's easy for a fan who never goes to a game to scream rebuild. They don't shell out a dime to watch a team who they expect to lose 60% of the time.

I can tell you from going to the games that there has been a significant decrease in attendance over even last year. Maybe all of the tickets have been sold to the game (doubtful), but there is usually 2-3k empty seats. The corners in the 200s are pretty empty and "press level" is maybe half full.

These were my observations from a Friday night Panthers game.