Twins (or even just one kid) - Not Happy/Ruining your Family

[polak]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

you guys are selfish for not spreading your seed out there.....go to poland, find woman with a few miles on the odometer, get her in the family way, selfishness over!!!!

assuming the author used his real name, or the smae name he regularly writes under - i wonder how his kids will feel when they find the article?

Not as bad as when they find their mom on redditgonewild

[undercoverbrother]

Holy ####, have kids, don't have kids.


It is your decision and your decision only. If someone in your life does not like it then too bad.

The one thing I will say, is that both parents need to be on the same page going into the marriage. It can be tuff if one spouse wants kids and the other does not.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by tete

The reason why many will implant more than 1 (most clinics will only do 2, maybe more if they're poor quality) is the sheer costs - when you're shelling out 10K + for fertility treatments, you kind of want to ensure you get a successful pregnancy the first time, instead of shelling out more cash for frozen embryo transfers or a fresh round. 2-3K can still be a huge amount, particulary after the first outset of cash for couples. Throw in the emotional side of fertility treatments, most just want to undergo the procedures once. I totally support Single Embryo Transfers but I can't see that happening unless the province steps up and funds IVF.

I realize why it happens but if you can't afford 2-3k over top of the 10k you just spent you can't really afford your child. Diapers are 2-3k.

One of the big arguments for government funded IVF is that you could mandate single embryo implantation which would almost pay for itself by reducing the complications from multiple births as a result of multiple embyos implanting and embryo splitting.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by polak

I don't see how anyone could say not having kids it selfish? Who are you slighting?

The life that literally doesn't exist yet?

In order for society to work there needs to be a generation of people to follow to buy your investments, run your power supply, run your hospital work at Mcdonalds. If everyone made the decision to not have kids the entire economy and society as a whole collapses. In the first world you could make up for this with immigration but a non-replacement population spells disaster for our economic system.

[tete]

Originally Posted by GGG

I realize why it happens but if you can't afford 2-3k over top of the 10k you just spent you can't really afford your child. Diapers are 2-3k.

One of the big arguments for government funded IVF is that you could mandate single embryo implantation which would almost pay for itself by reducing the complications from multiple births as a result of multiple embyos implanting and embryo splitting.

Oh I agree with you, I just know why some feel it's worth the "risk" to implant more than one. I didn't undergo IVF, so I didn't have to make that decision, but there were still risks of multiples in the fertility treatments I did. As you said, the medical costs for pregnancies and l&d would go down significantly if there were less multiples.

[polak]

Originally Posted by GGG

In order for society to work there needs to be a generation of people to follow to buy your investments, run your power supply, run your hospital work at Mcdonalds. If everyone made the decision to not have kids the entire economy and society as a whole collapses. In the first world you could make up for this with immigration but a non-replacement population spells disaster for our economic system.

Yes that's what the world lacks. Population.

Using that sort of "extreme" logic, having multiple children at this point IS selfish. Sacrificing finite space and resources on an already overpopulated planet so that you can increase the likelyhood of spreading your genetic material and odds of a successful child to care for you in retirement.

Selfish swine!

[Coys1882]

As a father of two - I think often of the financial freedom and more importantly - the lack of time commitments - our friends without kids have. When our kids went to their Baba's for a week this summer my wife and I got a taste of that again and it was sweet bliss - for about three days - and then I missed my kids like crazy.

I get why people don't have them and I don't find it selfish at all - it's your life live it how you choose - you owe no one to have kids for. I will say though, that the feeling of having a person who has complete faith in you and the belief you will never hurt them and also keep them from harm is pretty goddamn cool.

[GoinAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by GGG

If everyone made the decision to not have kids the entire economy and society as a whole collapses.

Ya, looking around, I don't think we are anywhere close to "everyone" making this descion.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

I will say though, that the feeling of having a person who has complete faith in you and the belief you will never hurt them and also keep them from harm is pretty goddamn cool.

As someone who had that sort of faith in their parents as a kid and just recently had it shattered and torn to pieces, just know that if you fail your kids, you will literally never be able to rebuild that sort of relationship. I still love my parents and have a decent relationship with them, but after what they put me through a couple years ago when their problems culminated, I'll never be able to look at them the same.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by fotze

I actually don't like that feeling. I don't like anyone counting on me.

####ing life mercenary.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by fotze

I actually don't like that feeling. I don't like anyone counting on me.

Don't worry the bar is set pretty low for you

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by polak

As someone who had that sort of faith in their parents as a kid and just recently had it shattered and torn to pieces, just know that if you fail your kids, you will literally never be able to rebuild that sort of relationship. I still love my parents and have a decent relationship with them, but after what they put me through a couple years ago when their problems culminated, I'll never be able to look at them the same.

Wow that is harsh.

I don't know your situation, and I am sorry you had to/are dealing with parent issues, but you don't know his current or future relationship with his kids. You can't predict what he and his kids relationship will be in the future.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

Ya, looking around, I don't think we are anywhere close to "everyone" making this descion.

I agree which is why neither having kids or choosing to not have kids is a selfish or selfless act in our current society. On an individual basis your decision to have child or not have one makes no difference.

But when some calls having kids selfish (which is kind of ridiculous) I feel it neccesary to point out that if everyone made the same choice not to have kids society ends and collapes when we all hit 50.

[polak]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Wow that is harsh.

I don't know your situation, and I am sorry you had to/are dealing with parent issues, but you don't know his current or future relationship with his kids. You can't predict what he and his kids relationship will be in the future.

Oh definitely. I'm not saying that this will happen to him or trying to make any predictions or anything of that nature. I guess I'm just trying to illustrate that this kind of dependence has it's dangers? I don't really know but that post struck home so I felt compelled to share.

Sorry Coys, if it came off as anything more than a personal anecdote please know that it wasn't supposed to...

[polak]

Originally Posted by fotze

Aren't Polish parents usually super strict and pretty much perfect?

Super strict, yes. Perfect, well would say anyone raised me could be described as perfect?



Edit: Actually super strict isn't really the right way of putting it. They were never really strict with stuff like curfews, partying or grades. But if I managed to piss them off, well lets just say I got very familiar with the feeling of a belt coming down on exposed skin.

[Plett25]

There's a Ted talk about synthesized happiness that it pretty applicable to this subject. If you choose to have kids (or choose not to have kids) you'll probably end up happy with your decision.

The wildcard is that in today's society with fewer and smaller families, many people don't really know what they're getting themselves into by having kids. So some people choose to have kids but get overwhelmed by the consequences of their decision.

[return to the red]

When wifey was pregnant I went through a little bit of a crisis. No more beers with the boys, no more random golf games, etc...whatever shall I do?

Little guy is now 1 month old and it really doesn't matter to me that I haven't done any of those things for a month. In fact, I actually cancelled my golf tonight to go home and spend time with the little guy because if I've learned anything this first month it's that time flies and they really do grow up quick.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

Well as a couple who chose to never have kids we will be leaving for Hawaii for the third time in 12 months tomorrow, to a hotel on the beach during off peak hours with minimal kids.

Selfish indeed.

That's when you pull the "oops honey, I was only able to get a ticket for myself. They ran out" trick.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by GGG

In order for society to work there needs to be a generation of people to follow to buy your investments, run your power supply, run your hospital work at Mcdonalds. If everyone made the decision to not have kids the entire economy and society as a whole collapses. In the first world you could make up for this with immigration but a non-replacement population spells disaster for our economic system.

I think if everyone stops having kids, the economy probably won't be the biggest thing to worry about. You ever see that movie "Children Of Men"? Pretty grim stuff! Although that Clive Owen manages to remain very dreamy even in such dire circumstances.

ANYWAY, I do see a lot of doom and gloom about the Baby Boomers all hitting retirement in the near future, and what a disaster that is going to be for the economy.

Is anyone on this site old enough to remember if this same conversation was had on CP in the late 40's? Were the childless/child-free posters considered selfish in those days?

[MarchHare]

My wife and I are a child-free (by choice) couple, and we most certainly have been accused of being "selfish" before by condescending -- and perhaps envious -- parents.

My standard reply is to ask the accuser why they chose to have children. The most common answers are some combination of the following:

- I want to experience the joys of parenthood
- I love children and want to be a mother/father
- I want someone who will care for me when I'm old
- I don't want to die alone
- I want to continue my family name (or some other variation of the "leave a legacy" theme)

Every single one of those reasons is completely selfish. Nobody ever chooses to have children solely for the altruistic benefit of humanity.

I'll be the first to admit that raising children properly involves making many personal sacrifices*, but don't fool yourself into thinking that the decision to choose to have children is any less selfish than the decision to choose to remain child-free. We all make choices based on what we believe will result in the greatest amount of happiness in our lives. For some people, that means having children; for others, it does not.

*However, I posit that most parents will admit that the sacrifices and hardships are worth it for the joy their children bring. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to determine if all of the parents who say that are being honest with themselves or not.