Tim Hortons a Flop in the US

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by MattyC

See this is my issue with some of the statements in here. Nationalism is nationalism. Its not fake or "faux", it's just something that happens. People identify with something enough it becomes part of the culture. And whether people like the food/coffee/drive thru lines/etc.. or not, it is stil a part of the culture.

I'm not saying nationalism is always good (its definitely not), but there are far worse things that could be considered part of our culture than a mediocre coffee shop. Like guns or obesity, or bad food (in the case of England). Do you think England likes being associated with bad food?



Sorry not sure how to spell it. Nice of you to pick out a tiny, random spelling mistake though.

No, there is such thing as faux nationalism.

Being totally obsessed with a fast found giant because they decided that their marketing campaign would revolve around being Canadian is stupid. Having friends and family look at me weird or say something like "what the hell is wrong with you? Every Canadian likes Timmies" when I tell them Tim Horton's is garbage is also stupid.

I'm sorry, but I would rather support the small local coffee shops/franchises that sell a good product than Tim Horton's because it's "Canadian".

[Coach]

Originally Posted by _Q_

No, there is such thing as faux nationalism.

Being totally obsessed with a fast found giant because they decided that their marketing campaign would revolve around being Canadian is stupid. Having friends and family look at me weird or say something like "what the hell is wrong with you? Every Canadian likes Timmies" when I tell them Tim Horton's is garbage is also stupid.

I'm sorry, but I would rather support the small local coffee shops/franchises that sell a good product than Tim Horton's because it's "Canadian".

I'm not arguing that people should be supporting it because its Canadian. I'm arguing that Canadian people support it and thus, it's Canadian.

Like you say you have friends and family wonder whats wrong with you when you don't like Tims. Just because you, yourself don't like Tims doesn't mean its not culturally Canadian. In fact, what your friends and family say supports my point. People (Canadians and internationals alike) identify with Tim Hortons as being a Canadian thing.

Like I said, not everyone is going to like their cultural stigmas, that doesn't mean they arent there.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Can't watch the vids at work (check them out later), but my argument is that this is not the cause of some mass marketing campaign Tim's came up with to instill themselves in the hearts of Canadians, it was Canadians that flocked to the stores, allowing them to put one every 15 feet in Canada. And it's Canadians that still today, even after all the evil indoctrination, come out to Tims in drothes. Tims would have been crazy not to latch onto it and play it up like they do. If you were a business owner, what would you do?

Head been in the sand for a couple decades or something? Tim Horton's has aggressively marketed itself as a Canadian institution and cultural touchstone. It was a brilliant strategy.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by valo403

Head been in the sand for a couple decades or something? Tim Horton's has aggressively marketed itself as a Canadian institution and cultural touchstone. It was a brilliant strategy.

Well I've only been alive for barely over 2, so yeah mostly.

But my point is this was not Tim Hortons plan to become a Canadian cultural icon, it was the incredible success driven by Canadians love for Tims that saw Tims react with "OK well lets ride the wave".

Now, I don't know if Tims was way better when they first opened and have been working at the margin ever since or what, but it is Canadian's that made Tims a national icon, not Tims. Tims could have opened and never saw a single customer and we never would have heard about it. But that's not what happened.

Why is Ford an American icon? Is it all the patriot BS that gets thrown out now? No, its the fact that it was born in the US and supported by Americans. And now they (along with other US car companies) get to use it as a marketing tool. But it's not the other way around.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I'm not arguing that people should be supporting it because its Canadian. I'm arguing that Canadian people support it and thus, it's Canadian.

Like you say you have friends and family wonder whats wrong with you when you don't like Tims. Just because you, yourself don't like Tims doesn't mean its not culturally Canadian. In fact, what your friends and family say supports my point. People (Canadians and internationals alike) identify with Tim Hortons as being a Canadian thing.

Like I said, not everyone is going to like their cultural stigmas, that doesn't mean they arent there.

Maybe me and you define nationalism in a different way.

To me Canadian nationalism is being obsessed with your national hockey team, or even having a passing interest in it and almost having a heart attack at every international finals that your team is involved in.

Being Canadian is being willing to pick up a rifle and defending your freedom when your country is attacked and being more than happy to die for your nation.

Being Canadian means you choke up a bit every time you hear O Canada for no reason other than the fact that O Canada is playing.

Being Canadian means you actually seriously love your country and think that every other country in the world is second rate compared to yours.

Consuming mediocre, fast food coffee and sugary snacks is certainly not Canadian and is down right embarrassing if that's what people associate this country with.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I'm not arguing that people should be supporting it because its Canadian. I'm arguing that Canadian people support it and thus, it's Canadian.

Like you say you have friends and family wonder whats wrong with you when you don't like Tims. Just because you, yourself don't like Tims doesn't mean its not culturally Canadian. In fact, what your friends and family say supports my point. People (Canadians and internationals alike) identify with Tim Hortons as being a Canadian thing.

Like I said, not everyone is going to like their cultural stigmas, that doesn't mean they arent there.

Ask yourself this, what makes it Canadian? Is it a unique aspect of the chain? Or is it a long running marketing campaign crafted around the idea that it's a uniquely Canadian institution?

An actual symbol of Canadian culture would have values or characteristics that make it uniquely Canadian and tied to the culture. A manufactured cultural institution is just that, something put together as part of a marketing campaign.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Well I've only been alive for barely over 2, so yeah mostly.

But my point is this was not Tim Hortons plan to become a Canadian cultural icon, it was the incredible success driven by Canadians love for Tims that saw Tims react with "OK well lets ride the wave".

Now, I don't know if Tims was way better when they first opened and have been working at the margin ever since or what, but it is Canadian's that made Tims a national icon, not Tims.

Well then you haven't been paying attention. They have marketed aggressively towards that goal for decades.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Maybe me and you define nationalism in a different way.

To me Canadian nationalism is being obsessed with your national hockey team, or even having a passing interest in it and almost having a heart attack at every international finals that your team is involved in.

Being Canadian is being willing to pick up a rifle and defending your freedom when your country is attacked and being more than happy to die for your nation.

Being Canadian means you choke up a bit every time you hear O Canada for no reason other than the fact that O Canada is playing.

Being Canadian means you actually seriously love your country and think that every other country in the world is second rate compared to yours.

Consuming mediocre, fast food coffee and sugary snacks is certainly not Canadian and is down right embarrassing if that's what people associate this country with.

Ah! But no one outside of Canada really knows how bad the coffee really is!

Wheres Sliver? People in this thread keep thinking that the taste of coffee is an objective fact as opposed to a subjective opinion, he can set us all straight.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by valo403

Ask yourself this, what makes it Canadian? Is it a unique aspect of the chain? Or is it a long running marketing campaign crafted around the idea that it's a uniquely Canadian institution?

An actual symbol of Canadian culture would have values or characteristics that make it uniquely Canadian and tied to the culture. A manufactured cultural institution is just that, something put together as part of a marketing campaign.

Tim Horton's - As Canadian as Maple Syrup, Beavers, and International Corporations repatriating to Canada to pay less Taxes!

We Stand on Guard for Thee!

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by valo403

Ask yourself this, what makes it Canadian? Is it a unique aspect of the chain? Or is it a long running marketing campaign crafted around the idea that it's a uniquely Canadian institution?

An actual symbol of Canadian culture would have values or characteristics that make it uniquely Canadian and tied to the culture. A manufactured cultural institution is just that, something put together as part of a marketing campaign.

I just want to say this discussion is hilarious.

Also, I can't think of a single thing that is inherently tied to Canadian culture that hasn't been played up as part of a marketing campaign.

Niceness, beavers, maple syrup, hockey, snow, whatever.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by valo403

Head been in the sand for a couple decades or something? Tim Horton's has aggressively marketed itself as a Canadian institution and cultural touchstone. It was a brilliant strategy.

It's been that way from the get go.

Basically, the whole chain was started by someone who wanted to cash in on the connection to hockey. It was founded by Tim Horton, but a bunch of corproate investors quickly took over, transformed the restaurant entirely, and began franchising. The only thing they kept was the name, to create a marketing link to hockey and, therefore, Canada.

It worked.

People don't go to Tim Horton's for the predictable quality of the food like other restaurants. They go there because they've arbitrarily decided this chain is more Canadian than others. IE they've been sucked in by lame patriotic marketing, which is one of the lowest forms of marketing.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by valo403

Ask yourself this, what makes it Canadian? Is it a unique aspect of the chain? Or is it a long running marketing campaign crafted around the idea that it's a uniquely Canadian institution?

An actual symbol of Canadian culture would have values or characteristics that make it uniquely Canadian and tied to the culture. A manufactured cultural institution is just that, something put together as part of a marketing campaign.

The fact that it was born in Canada and that Canadians support it above all other coffee suppliers by far.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Well I've only been alive for barely over 2, so yeah mostly.

But my point is this was not Tim Hortons plan to become a Canadian cultural icon, it was the incredible success driven by Canadians love for Tims that saw Tims react with "OK well lets ride the wave".

Now, I don't know if Tims was way better when they first opened and have been working at the margin ever since or what, but it is Canadian's that made Tims a national icon, not Tims. Tims could have opened and never saw a single customer and we never would have heard about it. But that's not what happened.

Why is Ford an American icon? Is it all the patriot BS that gets thrown out now? No, its the fact that it was born in the US and supported by Americans. And now they (along with other US car companies) get to use it as a marketing tool. But it's not the other way around.

SInce when is Ford an American icon? They're a global auto manufacturer. Even in Michigan I never heard Ford referred to as an American icon. Perhaps in the 70's and 80's when the domestic v. foreign fight was at its peak that would have been the case, but now Honda's are built down the road from the Ford plant which is down the road from the GM plant and the Toyota plant.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by blankall

It's been that way from the get go.

Basically, the whole chain was started by someone who wanted to cash in on the connection to hockey. It was founded by Tim Horton, but a bunch of corproate investors took over and turned it into a franchise. The only thing they kept was the name, to create a marketing link to hockey and, therefore, Canada.

It worked.

People don't go to Tim Horton's for the predictable quality of the food like other restaurants. They go there because they've arbitrarily decided this chain is more Canadian than others. IE they've been sucked in by lame patriotic marketing, which is one of the lowest forms of marketing.

Wow. Try to come off a little more 'holier-than-thou.' It'll be tough, but I think you can do it.

You just condescended that millions of people in Canada are stupider than you because their taste in coffee differs from yours.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MattyC

The fact that it was born in Canada and that Canadians support it above all other coffee suppliers by far.

So Enmax is a symbol of Calgary culture? Telus is a symbol of Canadian culture? Rogers? Insert any successful Canadian company here.

Origin and success does not equal culture.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Locke

Wow. Try to come off a little more 'holier-than-thou.' It'll be tough, but I think you can do it.

You just condescended that millions of people in Canada are stupider than you because their taste in coffee differs from yours.

No, the coffee is bad. It's objectively bad compared to the other options out there at that price point. It's beyond a matter of opinion.

Tim Horton's controls a massive amount of both the coffee and donut markets, and due to that we are all left with poor options.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by blankall

No, the coffee is bad. It's objectively bad compared to the other options out there at that price point. It's beyond a matter of opinion.

Tim Horton's controls a massive amount of both the coffee and donut markets, and due to that we are all left with poor options.

I'm going to disagree on 'It's objectively bad compared to the other options out there at that price point.'

Just because some people like bad coffee. Like the British and the homeless, ergo its a personal opinion.

I will agree that you are right that you can get 'better' coffee, in my opinion and obviously yours, at the same price point, if not lower.

I dont believe that millions of people are just gargling their swill and saluting the flag afterwards every day just to feel patriotic.

Some people obviously like it.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by valo403

So Enmax is a symbol of Calgary culture? Telus is a symbol of Canadian culture? Rogers? Insert any successful Canadian company here.

Origin and success does not equal culture.

I see your point. I guess I'm just looking at it from an outside perspective. If I were to ask you what you think US culture is my guess is the words guns, baseball, obesity, etc....

If you were to ask an international what they think Canadian culture is, my guess is Tim Hortons lands in there somewhere. Probably in the top 5. I'm not saying that people have to like it, it's just something that is identifyable as something purely Canadian. Whether it is PURELY Canadian when considering their corporate structure or whatever isn't really a relevant point. Whether or not they have since super-saturated themselves in the market of "being Canadian" is also irrelevant.

I don't buy Tims coffee because I feel like I'm funding Canadianism or something. I buy it because its convenient and inexpensive and not bad.

But just like you have to try the fish n chips in England, just like you have have an American cheesburger in the US, you have to have a Tim's coffee in Canada. Whether you like it or not, whether Tims is a driving force of the campaign or not really doesnt matter. What matters is that Tim Hortons is associated with Canada in a very big way nationally and internationally. And in my mind that makes it part of our culture.

And just because a few people here (and judging by product sales they are in the vast minority) hate Tims and all it stands for, doesn't offset the millions that visit Tims everyday making it a cultural phenomenon.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Locke

I'm going to disagree on 'It's objectively bad compared to the other options out there at that price point.'

Just because some people like bad coffee. Like the British and the homeless, ergo its a personal opinion.

I will agree that you are right that you can get 'better' coffee, in my opinion and obviously yours, at the same price point, if not lower.

I dont believe that millions of people are just gargling their swill and saluting the flag afterwards every day just to feel patriotic.

Some people obviously like it.

You'd be surprised at how many do that, especially with new immigrants. "Hey look! I can barely speak English, but I'm drinking Tim Horton's coffee, I'm being so Canadian right now, I love it! My favorite team is the Montreal Maple Leafs because they're Canadian and they have that Canadian player Henrik Sedin on them... I love Canada!"

Not trying to knock immigrants here, I am one myself, but I find a lot of my relatives act like this (or in a slightly less exaggerated, but similar fashion).

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Locke

I'm going to disagree on 'It's objectively bad compared to the other options out there at that price point.'

Just because some people like bad coffee. Like the British and the homeless, ergo its a personal opinion.

I will agree that you are right that you can get 'better' coffee, in my opinion and obviously yours, at the same price point, if not lower.

I dont believe that millions of people are just gargling their swill and saluting the flag afterwards every day just to feel patriotic.

Some people obviously like it.

I don't think people go solely due to the patriotism angle, but it definitely has been a big part of the marketing strategy during a massive growth period. The biggest reason people go into places like Tim's is familiarity, if you grew up drinking tim's coffee that's what coffee tastes like, and dammit you're going to learn to like it!