Stay classy, Mens Rights Edmonton

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I am not sure that a non conviction always equals a false accusation.

It definitely does not, but I'm just not sure what other measure people have to say what is a "false accusation." The 1-2% statistic may be correct, but it seems to be inherently unreliable.

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Lawyers what is the success rate for rape convictions and what might be reasons for failure?

I'm seeing something called the National Violence Against Women Survey that indicates that only 37% of rape cases involving an adult female victim are prosecuted and only 18% of them ultimately lead to a conviction. The low conviction rate is partially due to the victims declining to testify, and partially due to the existence of reasonable doubt in what often comes down to he said/she said cases.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by ken0042

If something like that had happened to you; would you be going around telling people about it? I can't think of a single reason somebody would. Assuming Pylon's story is 100% true (and we have no reason to suspect otherwise); the only thing that could result from him sharing the story was to have people suspect he was somewhat shady.

In this context, he might share this story here as we are discussing the topic of false accusations. Maybe I should make an anonymous poll.

Fair point. However, if these casual "cry rape" type incidents are in fact commonplace, I would still expect a close friend or family member to have told me about it. I would also expect to have come across the odd reported decision where someone was convicted of mischief (at least) for this type of behaviour.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by gargamel

It definitely does not, but I'm just not sure what other measure people have to say what is a "false accusation." The 1-2% statistic may be correct, but it seems to be inherently unreliable.

Just a guess, but it may be based off of situations where the accuser eventually admits to fabrication or is otherwise exposed as having fabricated the claim. I can think of a handful of cases in the last couple of years around NYC where that happened, although in each the accusation was at a vague character (6'2" 185lbs or something like that) and came from a woman who appeared to be suffering from some mental illness.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I am not sure that a non conviction always equals a false accusation.


Lawyers what is the success rate for rape convictions and what might be reasons for failure?

According to Statscan:

Proportion of adult cases with finding of guilty
Sexual Offences: 49%
Other Violent Offences: 53%

Beyond a reasonable doubt is a very, very high standard. A judge might completely believe a complainant's testimony, but still be left in reasonable doubt by other evidence. Simply put, there are countless reasons why a guilty accused person might be acquitted.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by valo403

Just a guess, but it may be based off of situations where the accuser eventually admits to fabrication

Even an admission of fabrication by the complainant may not be a very reliable indicator of an actual false report (especially a report against a spouse or family member.) There is often a tremendous amount of pressure on complainants to recant.

In any event, sexual assault reporting has received a great deal of academic attention over the last 20 or 30 years. I am no academic, but I am inclined to believe that the accepted statistics are at least in the right ball park.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by valo403

Just a guess, but it may be based off of situations where the accuser eventually admits to fabrication or is otherwise exposed as having fabricated the claim. I can think of a handful of cases in the last couple of years around NYC where that happened, although in each the accusation was at a vague character (6'2" 185lbs or something like that) and came from a woman who appeared to be suffering from some mental illness.

That's my suspicion too, but that would result in a huge underestimation of the percentage of rape accusations that are false. I wonder what conclusion they'd draw about the percentage of rape accusations that are false if they just tallied up the number of accused who claim they didn't do it?

[Regular_John]

In it's current form the men's right movement has two major issues which both serve to undermine their mandate of tackling gender specific issues that effect men.

1) They have a major image problem, their loudest/most vocal members seem to primarily be young, straight, Caucasian men. Whom traditionally aren't viewed as "victims" in the world. The last few centuries of human history have put the "straight white male" on the top of most mountains.

2) The vocal members do a very poor job of picking their battles and articulating the issues in a way that doesn't elicit a negative reaction from the public. They often come across as vilifying women/feminist as a whole, rather than the issue itself.

Yes, there are unique gender specific problems in the world that men face which in simplistic terms are "unfair". However, as most adults are well aware, life is not fair.

But when you get a group of young white men rallying against an issue most of us have never encountered, and they are tossing around terms like "feminazi" it's hard to take them very seriously.

Are the "don't be that guy" posters effective at preventing rape/sexual assaults? No, probably not, a rapist isn't gonna see one and think "oh yeah, rape is bad". But the counter posters aren't really attacking a bad PR campaign, they're attacking another issue, false rape accusations. Which seems like more of a tit for tat "my gender was targeted so I'm gonna target their's" reaction than a genuine attempt at debating the "don't be that guy" campaign.

Just my two cents, I'm not part of the men's right movement and as stated above I see issues with the movement in it's current form.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by jaydorn

Are the "don't be that guy" posters effective at preventing rape/sexual assaults? No, probably not, a rapist isn't gonna see one and think "oh yeah, rape is bad".

I disagree with this part of your post. The "Don't be that guy" campaign targets exactly the type of sexual assaults that many people don't realize are sexual assaults (i.e., the "fail to take all reasonable steps to confirm that sexual partner is in fact consenting to sexual activity" sexual assaults.)

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Fair point. However, if these casual "cry rape" type incidents are in fact commonplace, I would still expect a close friend or family member to have told me about it. I would also expect to have come across the odd reported decision where someone was convicted of mischief (at least) for this type of behaviour.

Just to clarify, I wouldn't say they are "commonplace." If I were to guess I would say the number would be in the 10-15% range- men who have been falsely accused.

However my definition of "falsely accused" doesn't nessesarily involve police. Pylon's example above would qualify. As would the poster in the OP that many find offensive; a woman regretting a 1 night stand.

I do agree that there is a much bigger problem with women who are assualted not reporting it. I'd say it's at least 5-10 times more frequent. That's why I added the poll; I'd like to see some numbers from here.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Just to clarify, I wouldn't say they are "commonplace."

Sorry, I was referring to pylon's characterization of the "cry rape because it is convenient" scenario as commonplace (or "not uncommon at all").

[Coys1882]

This thread is going nowhere fast. In the end:
Guys - don't take advantage of drunk girls.
Girls - don't play the 'rape' card to get yourself out of trouble, it could ruin an innocent person's life.

[Regular_John]

Originally Posted by Makarov

I disagree with this part of your post. The "Don't be that guy" campaign targets exactly the type of sexual assaults that many people don't realize are sexual assaults (i.e., the "fail to take all reasonable steps to confirm that sexual partner is in fact consenting to sexual activity" sexual assaults.)

Fair enough, I guess I didn't think there was much confusion over what constitutes sexual assault. But I'm also not involved in social services and/or law enforcement to really have a good perspective on the demographics.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by jaydorn

Fair enough, I guess I didn't think there was much confusion over what constitutes sexual assault. But I'm also not involved in social services and/or law enforcement to really have a good perspective on the demographics.

There is a LOT of confusion over what does and doesn't constitute sexual assault. It is a very gray area that is open to a lot of interpretation. Which is a big part of the problem. A lot of the wording says "unwanted" attention...but doesn't clarify if it matters when the attention becomes unwanted. In the situation in the OP, for example...that does happen. But it's rare. There are extreme folks out there who say that women can't consent period, and that any sexual act against them is rape.

The truth, of course, is somewhere in the middle. Rape is pretty easy to define...sexual assault is not.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

There is a LOT of confusion over what does and doesn't constitute sexual assault. It is a very gray area that is open to a lot of interpretation. Which is a big part of the problem. A lot of the wording says "unwanted" attention...but doesn't clarify if it matters when the attention becomes unwanted.

I'm not sure which "wording" you are referring to, but the Criminal Code does not say "unwanted attention". It says:

265.(1) A person commits an assault when
(a) without the consent of another person, he applies force intentionally to that other person, directly or indirectly;...

Section 271 creates the offence of sexual assault, but it does not define sexual assault. However, the courts have defined sexual assault as an assault under s. 265(1) committed in circumstances of a sexual nature such as to violate the sexual integrity of the complainant.

I'm not saying that this definition makes things any clearer, but thought that it might be helpful to provide the actual definition so that we are all talking about the same thing.

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

There are extreme folks out there who say that women can't consent period, and that any sexual act against them is rape.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but the Criminal Code expressly provides that certain people are incapable of consent in certain circumstances (people under the age of 16 consenting to sexual activity with persons more than two years older than him or her, for example.) The courts have also recognized circumstances where persons lack the capacity to consent (intoxication, cognitive disabilities, etc.)

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

The truth, of course, is somewhere in the middle. Rape is pretty easy to define...sexual assault is not.

I'm probably just being a stickler now, but there is no distinction between rape and sexual assault in Canadian law.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Makarov

I'm not sure which "wording" you are referring to, but the Criminal Code does not say "unwanted attention".

Hm, in thinking more about it, I think I am mixing up sexual harassment with sexual assault.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but the Criminal Code expressly provides that certain people are incapable of consent in certain circumstances (people under the age of 16 consenting to sexual activity with persons more than two years older than him or her, for example.) The courts have also recognized circumstances where persons lack the capacity to consent (intoxication, cognitive disabilities, etc.)

It was meant somewhat as it was said. There are extremist groups out there who feel that there is not a single woman in the world who is capable of actually consenting to sexual activity due to the patriarchal nature of society. Not underage women, not women lacking the cognitive capacity, but any woman.

I'm probably just being a stickler now, but there is no distinction between rape and sexual assault in Canadian law.

And there is no real definition of sexual assault. So there's a huge, broad grey area that 'we' are being trust to define ourselves...which doesn't seem to be working. The courts seem to be relying on peoples good judgement and common sense, which isn't working. Though I'm not sure that a specific definition could/should be nailed down, either.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

It was meant somewhat as it was said. There are extremist groups out there who feel that there is not a single woman in the world who is capable of actually consenting to sexual activity due to the patriarchal nature of society. Not underage women, not women lacking the cognitive capacity, but any woman.

There are? Well, that is clearly absurd and I expect would offend 99.9999% of women in Canada. Do you have a link? I'm curious to read more (and mock accordingly.)

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

And there is no real definition of sexual assault. So there's a huge, broad grey area that 'we' are being trust to define ourselves...which doesn't seem to be working. The courts seem to be relying on peoples good judgement and common sense, which isn't working. Though I'm not sure that a specific definition could/should be nailed down, either.

I just provided the definition. Obviously it is not clear how that definition applies to each and every circumstance, but such is the case with every single definition (legal or otherwise.)

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by Makarov

I disagree with this part of your post. The "Don't be that guy" campaign targets exactly the type of sexual assaults that many people don't realize are sexual assaults (i.e., the "fail to take all reasonable steps to confirm that sexual partner is in fact consenting to sexual activity" sexual assaults.)

I think pretty much everyone knows that the scenarios presented in the "don't be that guy" campaign are rape (not saying that it's a bad campaign, as I suspect that it's really directed more at victims to encourage them to report in those situations), but more education is necessary about where exactly the line is on whether someone is too drunk to consent. I think that is the one line that some people might cross without realizing that they're doing anything wrong.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Although a false allegation of sexual assault has terrible consequences for the accused (and also for police and justice system resources), the problem of false reporting absolutely pales in comparison to the problem of underreporting. As has already been noted in this thread, the rate of false reporting of sexual assault is consistent with false reporting of other crimes in Canada. However, the rate of underreporting of sexual assaults is far higher than the rate of underreporting of other crimes in Canada:

Source: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85f0033...008019-eng.pdf

Therefore, it seems likely that public campaigns attacking "false reporters" do more harm than good.

If you're not making a false accusation, then the campaign attacking false reports does not apply to you.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by ken0042

If something like that had happened to you; would you be going around telling people about it? I can't think of a single reason somebody would. Assuming Pylon's story is 100% true (and we have no reason to suspect otherwise); the only thing that could result from him sharing the story was to have people suspect he was somewhat shady.

In this context, he might share this story here as we are discussing the topic of false accusations. Maybe I should make an anonymous poll.

I didn't say a frikkin word about it for a long time. At the time I didn't want the cops involved even though I did nothing wrong, I didn't even tell my girlfriend at the time. It was as simple as the second a woman accuses a man of rape, your life could be over even if you did nothing wrong. It was easier to just pay to fix my car, than have to deal with a total nutcase.

Now I look back at how absurd the whole scenario was, and laugh at it. But it was definitely not funny to me then.

I had a close friend of mine in a custody dispute, have an ex wife fabricate abuse claims against him to win custody, and win a massive alimony and child support claim. The son wanted nothing more than to be with his dad, and the mother couldn't stand that fact as she was a horrible, violent parent, so she pulled the abuse card against him. He used to come to my house hiding from her when she was flipping out, and she would come over and scream at him though my front door, and punch the crap out of him when he came out. He was too embarrassed to call the cops, and too worried to lose his son if he reported her. 9 years later his son is now 16, the mother abandoned him, and fled the country back to South America, and he finally got retribution in the fact he no longer has to support her. But she destroyed his life with a massive lie, and destroyed his reputation by accusing him of being a wife beater, when he never was. But the judge took her at her word. But the guy lost opportunities and and is the saddest, beat down by life person I know.

I am not defending for one second people that actually do rape women. And I am not saying that there are more false accusations than not. But being involved in such a bizarre scenario as a young man, and seeing what happened to my buddy definitely made me be extremely careful on how I have interacted with women over the years. And I will be honest, it made me a lot less trusting of them.

[Peanut]

Ugh. I get too worked up about this issue to even read half of these posts. As long as incidents like this are still happening in the world, http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...n-boy-crm.html, the men's rights groups can shove it as far as I'm concerned. 8 years old. EIGHT YEARS OLD.

ETA: Ok, maybe they don't need to shove it. But I think more important issues than the "cry rape" are at hand. False accusations are a big deal, yes. But what is happening in our society to lead to these crimes against women and children? What is happening to boys and men in our society to lead 16-year olds from normal families in Calgary to be raping 8 year olds in a park? To men spiking drinks at clubs with drugs? To men date-raping women? I just don't understand.

False accusations are important and shouldn't be overlooked. But there are far, FAR, more urgent issues to be addressed regarding sexual assualts IMO.