Signing our College Prospects

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

The problem with the loop hole.

There is no loophole. Please stop calling it that... A loophole is an ambiguity in a system which can be used to circumvent or otherwise avoid the intent (implied or explicit) of the system.

Even the Schultz/Wheeler situation isn't a "loophole".

[Canada 02]

all through this article, Gaudreau talks about playing one more year at BC; taken at face value, another good sign he will be a Flame as early as next March

http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=665580

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GGG

You complain about posters not applying logic and panicing but what you post here is just wishful thinking. Hockey is a business and JG should look out for his best interests because the flames and everyother team will look out for theirs. There is no such thing as "The Right Thing" only what was negotiated in the collective bargaining agreement.

So principles and honesty don't matter? I doubt the Gaudreau's would agree with you, but we will find out in the next two years. I think that the character of both John and his father make it a slam dunk that he is a Calgary Flame in the future. I would be shocked if they viewed the collective bargaining agreement as a tool to pick and choose the team he plays for. And yes, there is a "right thing" to do, and when you don't do the right thing, it usually comes back to haunt you. There are plenty of players who have tried to use the old CBA slight of hand to better their situation and most of them are no longer in the NHL. They may cash in short term, but on the long term they are usually screwing themselves over.

[Miniac]

Originally Posted by Canada 02

all through this article, Gaudreau talks about playing one more year at BC; taken at face value, another good sign he will be a Flame as early as next March

http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=665580

Another year to get stronger and bigger.

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by Parallex

There is no loophole. Please stop calling it that... A loophole is an ambiguity in a system which can be used to circumvent or otherwise avoid the intent (implied or explicit) of the system.

Even the Schultz/Wheeler situation isn't a "loophole".

Fine, the finish college incentive...is this a substitute for addressing the substance of my post?

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

Fine, the finish college incentive...is this a substitute for addressing the substance of my post?

Well, it's better then erronously calling it a loophole while helping tp sow confusion between two seperate situations.

Although by calling it a "finish college incentive" you're implying that they have some incentive that's otherwise unavailable to players coming through other streams which frankly just isn't the case. The only "finish college incentive" they have is the same incentive that every college student (athlete or not) in the world has... receiving a degree from an accredited post-secondary educational institution (and statistically speaking a better & higher lifetime earning potential).

[Coach]

Originally Posted by GGG

You complain about posters not applying logic and panicing but what you post here is just wishful thinking. Hockey is a business and JG should look out for his best interests because the flames and everyother team will look out for theirs. There is no such thing as "The Right Thing" only what was negotiated in the collective bargaining agreement.

How is it any different than posters speculating off of literally zero information (and yes I consider the past cases of players doing this as zero information, each person is different) that he won't sign. There is no reason to think that Gaudreau is going to pull this move, even if he does stay to finish his degree. Why? Because he's given no indication that this is his plan and has maintained his commitment to the Flames and likewise.

The only thing we could definitively say IF JG decides to finish his degree, is that he will get a piece of paper from BC stating that he completed a program there. I wouldn't take it as some indication that he intends to leave the Flames, only that he feels maybe a career in hockey is not a given (especially given his stature) and that it might be a good idea to have a degree.

[kermitology]

It's not speculation perse, it's more of a worry/fear that a very talented but diminutive who is already highly sought after (including teams like Boston, who wanted him as well on draft day) opting to control his own destiny.

He's given no indication one way or the other, but it's a legitimate worry that a guy that this team covets and wants to be a component of the Flames in the future may not want to be a part of that future.

It's fully within his rights obviously, but it just sucks for the Flames if he decides to go that route.

[Coach]

I guess I just don't understand the fear behind it until there's actually some legitimate reasons to fear it. At this point it seems the fears are pretty baseless and do nothing but feed negativity towards the situation. My only fear is that JG comes on here, reads this thread, and decides to leave because the fan-base questions his loyalty. And that fear is about as legitimate as about anything else going on here.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by kermitology

but it's a legitimate worry that a guy that this team covets and wants to be a component of the Flames in the future may not want to be a part of that future.

No, it's not a "legitimate worry", it's a worry with it's roots in baseless paranoia.

If this is a "legitimate worry" then the Flames may as well dismantle their amateur scouting office and trade every single draft pick they get from now until the day the NHL ceases to exist (or the draft ceases to exist whichever comes first). It's nervious nellie'ing pure and simple... Oh no! We've only got 23.64 months to sign Sean Monohan (which is actually less time then we have to sign Johnny Gaudreau), best start fretting & worrying and looking for trade partners right now!

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Parallex

There is no loophole. Please stop calling it that... A loophole is an ambiguity in a system which can be used to circumvent or otherwise avoid the intent (implied or explicit) of the system.

Even the Schultz/Wheeler situation isn't a "loophole".

It is called a "loophole" because unlike other drafted players, these guys have already decided prior to the draft that they will stay in school (for 4 years).

The staying in school decision isn't the problem though (more guys should be encouraged to do it), the loophole is that this decision gives them the ability to become unrestricted free agents at the end of their planned school time and this is without any inconvenience to the player. All they have to do is wait until August 15th of the year after school ends to get this special UFA status.

If a regular drafted player were to do this they would have to hold out from signing with their team and then end up back in the draft. Normal players that "properly" go through the system do not get a chance to become a UFA until their mid to late 20s and have to stay with their drafting team until that time (unless they are traded).

Unless I am mixing up my CBAs, that would be the "loophole" to acquire both a degree and early UFA status with zero lost time to the player.

IMO, the fix would be simple enough. The drafting team should get to hold the college player's rights until he turns 26 so he does not get a special ability to go UFA.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by kermitology

It's not speculation perse, it's more of a worry/fear that a very talented but diminutive who is already highly sought after (including teams like Boston, who wanted him as well on draft day) opting to control his own destiny.

Well, if we're making decisions based on worries, I definitely think we should trade Bartschi immediately, because if he takes one more hit to the head he could become a vegetable! Now, there is a difference between my "worry" because Bartschi already has a history of concussions, and as we know, severity of or damage from concussions are additive, so there is some reasoning behind this concern. Gaudreau? No history of screwing teams over. No history of turning his back on the Flames. No signs of disengagement at all. So this worry seems to be a fabrication of someone's imagination more than a probable scenario, even if he went back and finished his degree. Or should we be dumping Agostino immediately as well? He is going back for his senior year and could be an unrestricted free agent in 13 months!

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Wolven

the loophole is that this decision gives them the ability to become unrestricted free agents at the end of their planned school time.

That is NOT a loophole. The purpose of the rule is to roughly harmonizes the length of time before unsigned amateur players gain open negotiation rights (at least with regards to location)...

Major Junior: Draft (2 Years) + Redraft (2 years) 2+2=4 years.
NCAA: Until Graduation: Program length typically no less then 4 years.
Junior Year then NCAA (AKA Wheeler/Schultz): 4 years .
European League: 4 years .

You think it's just a coinsidence that players, regardless of where they come out of, all have roughly the same amount of club access restriction?

They're called UFA's but really the only "unrestricted" part is location. Salary and Movement Clauses are still restricted via entry level rules and once they sign they're still bound by restricted free agency rules until age 27 or seven years service time. They don't become true Unrestricted Free Agents.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by New Era

So principles and honesty don't matter? I doubt the Gaudreau's would agree with you, but we will find out in the next two years. I think that the character of both John and his father make it a slam dunk that he is a Calgary Flame in the future. I would be shocked if they viewed the collective bargaining agreement as a tool to pick and choose the team he plays for. And yes, there is a "right thing" to do, and when you don't do the right thing, it usually comes back to haunt you. There are plenty of players who have tried to use the old CBA slight of hand to better their situation and most of them are no longer in the NHL. They may cash in short term, but on the long term they are usually screwing themselves over.

What principle would he be violating. I don't even thing he would be being dishonest as right now he probably does intend to play for the flames. That might change once he has the choice to go anywhere he wants instead of right now just choosing between extra years of college.

Does Corbin Knight lack character because he chose the best situation for himself? I certainly don't think so.

I do think there should be a rule that if a team offers the rookie max to a draft pick they will continue to hold their rights indefinately but since the owners chose not to change this in collective bargaining I dont think it is fair to attack the character of a player who looks out for their best interest when if the player doesn't pan out into a top prospect the team would never call them again.

Its not like the flames have invested any money into him either, NCAA rules prohibit us from doing so. He doesn't owe the flames anything so how can there be a "RIGHT THING" to do.

[kermitology]

It is a known fact that Gaudreau could wait it out and become an unrestricted free agent at the end of his collegate career. The fact that he is a highly sought after prospective player lends credence to the idea that it could influence Gaudreau to wait until that time to control his own destiny. This is not an inaccurate statement. It is not speculation, it is a legitimate future scenario. I am neither advocating trading him right now or at the end of his Junior year if he doesn't sign before then. I personally believe that this scenario will happen and a player who has the potential to do some great things will never play a game for the Flames, and that sucks for me. Therefore it IS a legitimate concern/worry for some fans if they want to see him play for the Flames.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by GGG

Does Corbin Knight lack character because he chose the best situation for himself? I certainly don't think so.

I don't know whether I'd say he lacks character, but him refusing to sign with the team that invested a draft pick in him is enough to make him my least favorite new Flame since Bertuzzi. With Knight, there was the additional factor of him wearing Canucks gear for interviews while being Panthers property, so it seems like his lack of loyalty this summer is nothing new. Based on everything that I've heard about Gaudreau, he doesn't seem to be that kind of guy. I wouldn't be shocked if he stays at BC until he graduates, but I'm confident that he will eventually be a Flame.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by kermitology

It is a known fact that Gaudreau could wait it out and become an unrestricted free agent at the end of his collegate career.

It is a known fact that any player that waits 4 years becomes able to choose his team amoungst any suiters. I eagerly await you starting a thread where people can vent their paranoia that all the draft picks won't sign.

Originally Posted by kermitology

The fact that he is a highly sought after prospective player lends credence to the idea that it could influence Gaudreau to wait until that time to control his own destiny.

Guess we best start worrying about Monahan not signing so that he can have a shot in two years of playing for someone else eh.

Originally Posted by kermitology

This is not an inaccurate statement. It is not speculation, it is a legitimate future scenario.

Sure... in the sense that a meteor hitting the earth causing a E.L.E. thus wiping out humanity is a legitimate future scenario (i.e. an event that is theorhetically possible). By that standard let's all write to the team asking them to trade all the draft picks because they might not sign one day.

Originally Posted by kermitology

I personally believe that this scenario will happen and a player who has the potential to do some great things will never play a game for the Flames.

Based on what exactly? Your "gut"? a "feeling"?... you got any actual verifiable inside info? 'cause if you don't that's just baseless paranoia.

Originally Posted by kermitology

Therefore it IS a legitimate concern/worry for some fans if they want to see him play for the Flames.

That's a pretty low bar to set for the term "legitimate". I see absolutely no legitimacy here, I see a lot of scared handwringing but nothing that legitimizes anybodies fears.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Parallex

It is a known fact that any player that waits 4 years becomes able to choose his team amoungst any suiters. I eagerly await you starting a thread where people can vent their paranoia that all the draft picks won't sign.

Yes, this is true but most sought after prospects sign after year 1 or year 2. So any propspect who hits year 3 or whose deadline to re-enter the draft becomes somewhat of a concern.

Guess we best start worrying about Monahan not signing so that he can have a shot in two years of playing for someone else eh.

If Monahan doesnt sign and skips training camp this year and goes back to junior unsigned then yes we should start to worry. I agree that we shouldnt really be concerned about JG until year 4

Sure... in the sense that a meteor hitting the earth causing a E.L.E. thus wiping out humanity is a legitimate future scenario (i.e. an event that is theorhetically possible). By that standard let's all write to the team asking them to trade all the draft picks because they might not sign one day.

A little more probable then that. We seem to have 1 sought after player a year recently who look to exercise their free agent rights.

That's a pretty low bar to set for the term "legitimate". I see absolutely no legitimacy here, I see a lot of scared handwringing but nothing that legitimizes anybodies fears.

I think you under estimate the risk if he chooses to go back after year 3. The most sought after 4th year college prospect in each of the last two years has forced his teams hand.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Originally Posted by Parallex

So do Junior players. NCAA players have no "advantage" over Major Junior players. They all gain open negotiating rights at about the same time. Junior players don't go back into the draft after four years, they go back after two (2+2 still =4 last time I checked).

To say otherwise is just chicken littling.

Junior players who don't want to sign have to find somewhere else to play when they hit 20.

They have to go to Europe, or join a crappy minor pro league, or get onto a college team.

College players just keep playing until they're done college.

There's a huge difference, and its entirely in favor of the college players.

[JerryUnderscore]

While I suppose there is some merit to saying that theoretically it's possible that JG refuses to sign, it's still far from a legitimate fear.

First of all, he has shown zero signs that would suggest he's going to bolt. Literally none. If I recall, he's attended every prospect camp (including this current one) and even said in interviews that he expects to play for the Flames.

Furthermore, what it seems like the "he won't sign" camp continues to ignore is that if he refuses to sign, he becomes a UFA on August 15th, instead of June 1st. This is extremely significant, because it means that no team can talk to him without our permission until August 15th.

Now, if Johnny is as sought after as we say he is (and let's say for the sake of argument that he is), it means that's he's going to get a max ELC from whatever team he signs with. Which means we're talking about a cap hit of $3.775M.

Today is July 10th, a mere 5 days after free agency started this year, and already 11 teams have less than $3.775M in cap room. (Including Boston btw)

Which means, we actually have two gambles going on here. Any teams that are interested in him have to leave at least that much cap space open in order to sign him 45 days after free agency opens. Which means they have to pass up players that are currently on the market in a gamble to land Johnny 45 days later.

Meanwhile, Johnny has to refuse to sign and gamble on the idea that one of his preferred destinations will have left the cap room to sign him. And all of this has to happen with absolutely no communication between JG and these other teams, otherwise the Flames could have a great case of tampering on their hands.

When you put all that together, no team in there right minds would risk all of that. More likely what would happen is a Corban Knight situation. JG would inform us that he doesn't want to sign with us and we would start allowing other teams to negotiate with him early. However, if anyone gets him to sign we would get X (a second round pick or prospect from their team, etc.)