The Prospect Cupboard

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Pierre "Monster" McGuire

Whereas Reinhart has to put on some muscle mass and learn to score a bit more at the AHL level before being an effective NHLer.

Except Reinhart looked great in the actual NHL, which negates anything he did/didn't do in the AHL. Reinhart isn't going to be a scorer in the NHL, I'm not worried or concerned that he needs to learn to score in the AHL.

It'll be a surprise if Wotherspoon makes it out of camp this year, Reinhart has a pretty big inside track.

[cowtown75]

Originally Posted by 868904

I think Reinhart needs another year in the AHL. He needs to put together a solid offensive season together because I think he has greater potential than just a checking centre. I'd like to see him develop the offensive side of his game.

I agree with you in a sense, but didn't he seem more productive on the big club ? Many mentioned, incl. myself that said that he may just be one of those players who preform better in the NHL than the minors. Maybe he does need another year in the AHL, but I would hate to stunt or frustrate the guy if in fact he is "one of those" players. I had zero complaints last year with his preformance and thought he was one of our hardest working, smarter, young guys who just had the misfortune of hitting to many posts.

[Hells Bells]

Quite an improvement on the Irving, Pelech, Chucko & Howse days.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Tough to rank prospects. Do you go by their floors? Ceilings? NHL readiness?

Ceilings:
Jankowski
Monahan
Gaudreau
Baertschi
Reinhart

Floors:
Reinhart
Baertschi
Monahan
Jankowski
Gaudreau

NHL readiness:
Baertschi
Reinhart
Monahan
Gaudreau
Jankowski

I mean, not everyone is going to agree with the exact lists, but you get the picture.

For "NHL Readiness", I would rank the prospects this way:

Horak
Baertschi
Reinhart
Bouma
Nemisz
Cundari
Breen
Monahan
Gaudreau
Jankowski

IMO, having played already in the NHL and achieving a relative measure of success places you higher up, regardless of what your floor or ceiling is. I know some posters here don't like Nemisz, but it is too soon to cut bait, and there are loads of contract space. Why throw someone away when he could at least be a solid player for the Heat? He has the hockey IQ I think, and it isn't like he is going to get a big raise.

When you take a look at the prospect cupboard, you really start seeing it taking shape. Outside of Aliu, there doesn't seem to be anyone that has had any stories of character flaws (though in Aliu's case, I don't really think of him in that light - just the 'cloud' that seems to surround him at times). Many have been leaders (though many solid prospects have worn the C or the A, I do think there is a bit more solid leadership experience amongst these prospects than the average. All good solid character guys. You can't really believe everything you hear, but there are often a lot of negative press surrounding certain prospects (like the rumors about Shinkaruk the last few years).

What I really like is how most of them are hard-working, non-stop 2-way players whether they are 'skilled' or not. Gaudreau and Jankowski seem like the two outliers here, but there compete levels are very high. Reinhart, Monahan, Baertschi, Poirier, Klimchuk, Arnold - all guys that seem to have exceedingly high hockey IQ's, and play a complete 200 foot game.

Flames are going to be tough to play against in the future (as they continue to draft players of these types).

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Tough to rank prospects. Do you go by their floors? Ceilings? NHL readiness?

Ceilings:
Jankowski
Monahan
Gaudreau
Baertschi
Reinhart

Floors:
Reinhart
Baertschi
Monahan
Jankowski
Gaudreau

NHL readiness:
Baertschi
Reinhart
Monahan
Gaudreau
Jankowski

I mean, not everyone is going to agree with the exact lists, but you get the picture.

For "NHL Readiness", I would rank the prospects this way:

Horak
Baertschi
Reinhart
Bouma
Nemisz
Cundari
Breen
Monahan
Gaudreau
Monahan

IMO, having played already in the NHL and achieving a relative measure of success places you higher up, regardless of what your floor or ceiling is. I know some posters here don't like Nemisz, but it is too soon to cut bait, and there are loads of contract space. Why throw someone away when he could at least be a solid player for the Heat? He has the hockey IQ I think, and it isn't like he is going to get a big raise.

When you take a look at the prospect cupboard, you really start seeing it taking shape. Outside of Aliu, there doesn't seem to be anyone that has had any stories of character flaws (though in Aliu's case, I don't really think of him in that light - just the 'cloud' that seems to surround him at times). Many have been leaders (though many solid prospects have worn the C or the A, I do think there is a bit more solid leadership experience amongst these prospects than the average. All good solid character guys. You can't really believe everything you hear, but there are often a lot of negative press surrounding certain prospects (like the rumors about Shinkaruk the last few years).

What I really like is how most of them are hard-working, non-stop 2-way players whether they are 'skilled' or not. Gaudreau and Jankowski seem like the two outliers here, but there compete levels are very high. Reinhart, Monahan, Baertschi, Poirier, Klimchuk, Arnold - all guys that seem to have exceedingly high hockey IQ's, and play a complete 200 foot game.

Flames are going to be tough to play against in the future (as they continue to draft players of these types).

Not to nitpick as this is a pretty insightful post, but where was it you see monahan at?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Not to nitpick as this is a pretty insightful post, but where was it you see monahan at?

Before and after Gaudreau, just like he said. You see, Gaudreau is leetle, and Monahan can sort of stand over him with one foot on each side.

[cral12]

I might be in the minority, but for me Monahan gets the nod, albeit slight, over Sven.

[JurassicTunga12]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Tough to rank prospects. Do you go by their floors? Ceilings? NHL readiness?

Ceilings:
Jankowski
Monahan
Gaudreau
Baertschi
Reinhart

Floors:
Reinhart
Baertschi
Monahan
Jankowski
Gaudreau

NHL readiness:
Baertschi
Reinhart
Monahan
Gaudreau
Jankowski

I mean, not everyone is going to agree with the exact lists, but you get the picture.

For "NHL Readiness", I would rank the prospects this way:

Horak
Baertschi
Reinhart
Bouma
Nemisz
Cundari
Breen
Monahan
Gaudreau
Monahan

IMO, having played already in the NHL and achieving a relative measure of success places you higher up, regardless of what your floor or ceiling is. I know some posters here don't like Nemisz, but it is too soon to cut bait, and there are loads of contract space. Why throw someone away when he could at least be a solid player for the Heat? He has the hockey IQ I think, and it isn't like he is going to get a big raise.

When you take a look at the prospect cupboard, you really start seeing it taking shape. Outside of Aliu, there doesn't seem to be anyone that has had any stories of character flaws (though in Aliu's case, I don't really think of him in that light - just the 'cloud' that seems to surround him at times). Many have been leaders (though many solid prospects have worn the C or the A, I do think there is a bit more solid leadership experience amongst these prospects than the average. All good solid character guys. You can't really believe everything you hear, but there are often a lot of negative press surrounding certain prospects (like the rumors about Shinkaruk the last few years).

What I really like is how most of them are hard-working, non-stop 2-way players whether they are 'skilled' or not. Gaudreau and Jankowski seem like the two outliers here, but there compete levels are very high. Reinhart, Monahan, Baertschi, Poirier, Klimchuk, Arnold - all guys that seem to have exceedingly high hockey IQ's, and play a complete 200 foot game.

Flames are going to be tough to play against in the future (as they continue to draft players of these types).

Don't forget Corban Knight. He's going to be a good one, I think.

[ben voyonsdonc]

I'm glad to see that it appears that we have some more depth in our system. I'm excited but still hesitant. I've become much more skeptical after seeing the failure of so many prospects. Injuries, ego, and poor coaching/development management has ruined many a prospect on their way to becoming a surefire NHLer.

I feel that we are in a similar position to the Blue Jays after Ricciardi left. We are trying to restock some very bare shelves with talent and we will have to be patient with the process. It will likely involve a couple of brutal years but we have to prioritize prospect progress over the win loss column. We are in this situation because we neglected our prospect pool and traded away so many picks to maintain a "win now" mentality. Smart teams develop their talent pool and slough off aging players to obtain assets (prospects and draft picks). We did the opposite for 5 years and it will take time, luck, and attention to scouting and development to undo the damage.

I'd love Seguin or Leddy but how many of our assets would we have to give up? Even with those players, are we a playoff team? I don't think so.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Not to nitpick as this is a pretty insightful post, but where was it you see monahan at?

LoL - the second Monahan should have been Jankowski. Thanks for catching it! Too much time in the sun today I think...

[bucksmasher]

Originally Posted by Red John

Hopefully the trio of 1st rounders play in the Young stars tournament in Penticton this year.

In the past teams have sent a real "B" lineup to that tournament (perhaps because of the incident when the Oilers brought a cement head to injure people a few years back) so hopefully the Flames take it seriously and bring some of their best prospects.

well just throw Kanzig in the bus then

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by JurassicTunga12

Don't forget Corban Knight. He's going to be a good one, I think.

Didn't really forget about him - just a quick run-through without naming all the prospects. For instance, I do believe Wotherspoon is very close to NHL ready based on his size, IQ and the type of game he plays.

I would put Knight right around the same ballpark as Nemisz - probably a bit higher. But that is just me.

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

I'm glad to see that it appears that we have some more depth in our system. I'm excited but still hesitant. I've become much more skeptical after seeing the failure of so many prospects. Injuries, ego, and poor coaching/development management has ruined many a prospect on their way to becoming a surefire NHLer.

I feel that we are in a similar position to the Blue Jays after Ricciardi left. We are trying to restock some very bare shelves with talent and we will have to be patient with the process. It will likely involve a couple of brutal years but we have to prioritize prospect progress over the win loss column. We are in this situation because we neglected our prospect pool and traded away so many picks to maintain a "win now" mentality. Smart teams develop their talent pool and slough off aging players to obtain assets (prospects and draft picks). We did the opposite for 5 years and it will take time, luck, and attention to scouting and development to undo the damage.

I'd love Seguin or Leddy but how many of our assets would we have to give up? Even with those players, are we a playoff team? I don't think so.

Some of these prospects will not end up on the team. Some will bomb, some will be traded away, some will just never get to their ceilings and eventually they will be moved on. However, it is all about building the deepest prospect pool. When you think of it, Flames were a bit 'ahead' of the rebuild game as compared to some other teams.

Usually teams that decide to rebuild are teams that were trying to contend and artificially keep themselves in the 'game' for too long by trading away the future for the now.

Flames stopped trading away their future in the last few years, and have rebuilt their drafting and development department over the years. Flames seemed to be getting some hits in the later rounds in the NHL (Reinhart, Brodie), as well as hits in the later rounds that are SO FAR proving to be likely NHL players (but not guarantees - Gaudreau, Arnold, etc), which seems to me CLOSER to a team like Ottawa than Edmonton (not as high as Ottawa - they were left with Spezza, and they had Karlsson drafted already before they decided to tear it down I believe).

There is very good reason to be optimistic for the Flames' future, but a bit of caution is indeed needed. Rebuilds take 2 years minimum I think before you can expect to see improvement. Based on the depth of the prospect base so far, it is looking 'positive'. Not that you can put too much stock in something like the HF prospect pool rankings, but it does show trends and generalizations. Flames have been improving, and I expect them to climb to around 15th at the lowest when they re-rank. Flames were in the bottom 2 or 3 for a while, and the last ranking had them sitting at 20th (if memory serves). Should see an improvement after this draft (3 first rounders after-all), the Knight signing, Gaudreau looking better, Baertschi breaking into the NHL more, etc.

There will always be prospects that unfortunately fall to injuries or just a lack of development, but there are also always surprises as well. Main thing is to keep pushing for the future and concentrate on scouting well, drafting well, and developing prospects with patience. Calgary spends loads of money in this area now as compared to the 90's-early 2000's, so you can realistically (rather than hoping over-optimistically) that they SHOULD see a big improvement.

Flames are still going to be a bottom of the standings team for at the very least this upcoming season. They should be adding another blue-chipper. They will also have a few more vets to trade between now and the next draft as well, which will only add to the pool (or at least, return younger vets to help the team improve longer-term).

Just the way I see it anyways.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by bucksmasher

well just throw Kanzig in the bus then

I would count on him being there actually - every prospect the Flames have should be there (except those that were drafted over 3 seasons ago). Not sure if Reinhart would be there in that case. Anyone confirm the cut-off? The 2010 and earlier I would view as probably not being part of it, but I could be wrong.

I am not too familiar with the Vancouver prospects, but it seems they have been drafting really big guys over the last few years (of course, not counting this year with Horvat, Shinkaruk and Subban especially). Having Kanzig there will be beneficial not only to his development curve, but also for the other prospects in that case

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Some of these prospects will not end up on the team. Some will bomb, some will be traded away, some will just never get to their ceilings and eventually they will be moved on. However, it is all about building the deepest prospect pool. When you think of it, Flames were a bit 'ahead' of the rebuild game as compared to some other teams.

Usually teams that decide to rebuild are teams that were trying to contend and artificially keep themselves in the 'game' for too long by trading away the future for the now.

Flames stopped trading away their future in the last few years, and have rebuilt their drafting and development department over the years. Flames seemed to be getting some hits in the later rounds in the NHL (Reinhart, Brodie), as well as hits in the later rounds that are SO FAR proving to be likely NHL players (but not guarantees - Gaudreau, Arnold, etc), which seems to me CLOSER to a team like Ottawa than Edmonton (not as high as Ottawa - they were left with Spezza, and they had Karlsson drafted already before they decided to tear it down I believe).

There is very good reason to be optimistic for the Flames' future, but a bit of caution is indeed needed. Rebuilds take 2 years minimum I think before you can expect to see improvement. Based on the depth of the prospect base so far, it is looking 'positive'. Not that you can put too much stock in something like the HF prospect pool rankings, but it does show trends and generalizations. Flames have been improving, and I expect them to climb to around 15th at the lowest when they re-rank. Flames were in the bottom 2 or 3 for a while, and the last ranking had them sitting at 20th (if memory serves). Should see an improvement after this draft (3 first rounders after-all), the Knight signing, Gaudreau looking better, Baertschi breaking into the NHL more, etc.

There will always be prospects that unfortunately fall to injuries or just a lack of development, but there are also always surprises as well. Main thing is to keep pushing for the future and concentrate on scouting well, drafting well, and developing prospects with patience. Calgary spends loads of money in this area now as compared to the 90's-early 2000's, so you can realistically (rather than hoping over-optimistically) that they SHOULD see a big improvement.

Flames are still going to be a bottom of the standings team for at the very least this upcoming season. They should be adding another blue-chipper. They will also have a few more vets to trade between now and the next draft as well, which will only add to the pool (or at least, return younger vets to help the team improve longer-term).

Just the way I see it anyways.

Good analysis.

I think bringing a vet aboard like Lecavalier makes sense because he could act a mentor and we wouldn't need to give up an asset to get him. The goal in bringing in a vet should be to complement the existing youth and help their development. For the next few years, we should fill our roster with young talent and only use free agency to plug any obvious holes that we have.

I've seen a substantial change in the management philosophy in the last few years...especially under Feaster. We have certainly made real progress but we have a bunch of catching up to do. I'm not sure if Flames fans can really swallow a couple of bad years but I really think we need to stick with a plan and see it through to its conclusion. No shortcuts.

[Fire]

My list for the hell of it:

1. Sean Monahan
2. Sven Baertschi
3. John Gaudreau
4. Jon Gillies
5. Emile Poirier
6. Mark Jankowski
7. Tyler Wotherspoon
8. Morgan Klimchuk
9. Corban Knight
10. Mark Cundari
11. Max Reinhart
12. Laurent Brossoit
13. Pat Sieloff
14. Joni Ortio
15. Ken Agostino
16. John Ramage
17. Markus Granlund
18. Ben Hanowski
19. Michael Ferland
20. Brett Kulak


BTW when is the prospect camp?

[BlackWallStreet]

Was just wondering why jankowski is considered one of our top prospects when he didn't do very well statistically this most recent year. Can someone give me some insight on this player? Thx

[cowtown75]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Tough to rank prospects. Do you go by their floors? Ceilings? NHL readiness?

Ceilings:
Jankowski
Monahan
Gaudreau
Baertschi
Reinhart

Floors:
Reinhart
Baertschi
Monahan
Jankowski
Gaudreau

NHL readiness:
Baertschi
Reinhart
Monahan
Gaudreau
Jankowski

I mean, not everyone is going to agree with the exact lists, but you get the picture.

For "NHL Readiness", I would rank the prospects this way:

Horak
Baertschi
Reinhart
Bouma
Nemisz
Cundari
Breen
Monahan
Gaudreau
Jankowski

IMO, having played already in the NHL and achieving a relative measure of success places you higher up, regardless of what your floor or ceiling is. I know some posters here don't like Nemisz, but it is too soon to cut bait, and there are loads of contract space. Why throw someone away when he could at least be a solid player for the Heat? He has the hockey IQ I think, and it isn't like he is going to get a big raise.

When you take a look at the prospect cupboard, you really start seeing it taking shape. Outside of Aliu, there doesn't seem to be anyone that has had any stories of character flaws (though in Aliu's case, I don't really think of him in that light - just the 'cloud' that seems to surround him at times). Many have been leaders (though many solid prospects have worn the C or the A, I do think there is a bit more solid leadership experience amongst these prospects than the average. All good solid character guys. You can't really believe everything you hear, but there are often a lot of negative press surrounding certain prospects (like the rumors about Shinkaruk the last few years).

What I really like is how most of them are hard-working, non-stop 2-way players whether they are 'skilled' or not. Gaudreau and Jankowski seem like the two outliers here, but there compete levels are very high. Reinhart, Monahan, Baertschi, Poirier, Klimchuk, Arnold - all guys that seem to have exceedingly high hockey IQ's, and play a complete 200 foot game.

Flames are going to be tough to play against in the future (as they continue to draft players of these types).

Nemisz, is that you ? lol

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by bucksmasher

well just throw Kanzig in the bus then

You could use Kanzig AS a bus.

[cowtown75]

Originally Posted by BlackWallStreet

Was just wondering why jankowski is considered one of our top prospects when he didn't do very well statistically this most recent year. Can someone give me some insight on this player? Thx

He is in a whole different ball of wax this year- in other words, not playing with kids. He will have a learning curve. Would I say he is a top 4 prospect right now ? no, not really. There is Gaudreau, Monahan, Gillies, Brossoit, Sieloff, Wotherspoon, Pourier, Klimchuck ahead of him due to eta of development. He is regarded as a top prospect by many as he is the first center who has any offensive upside as a taller center since Joe Niewendyk last year. Time will tell. The tools and size are there, it's just a matter of seeing if he puts it all together.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by BlackWallStreet

Was just wondering why jankowski is considered one of our top prospects when he didn't do very well statistically this most recent year. Can someone give me some insight on this player? Thx

Well, opinion differs on this board.

Jankowski probably has the highest ceiling (arguably higher than Monahan, though Monahan has a WAY higher floor). He has great size (6'3" +), but went through a HUGE growth spurt (8 inches?? Can't remember) in the last couple of years. Made him really skinny. He was 165 or 170 when Flames drafted him. He is now 190 and growing.

He was drafted out of a Canadian high school prep. Quality of competition was awful. Systems play was mediocre. Coaching was probably mediocre as well - at east when you compare it to the traditional junior programs out there (CHL, USHL, etc).

He was an extremely raw prospect. He was going to go the USHL after his draft year to Dubuque, but in training camp with the Flames, he didn't seem out of place. Decided to go directly to Providence in the NCAA. That is a huge step-up for him.

That was a lot for him to overcome in one year:
Growth spurt (still probably a bit clumsy, thin as a rail)
Quality of Competition
Learning to play advanced systems hockey
Playing against men suddenly (not at most 18 year old kids in prep, but 24 year old men)
Playing on the wing (coach felt he needed to adapt to NCAA first on the wing - centers have too much defensive responsibilities)

Not sure what everyone was expecting, but I would say he had a pretty good year.
34 GP 7G 11 A 18 Pts 10 PIM

This upcoming season he is moving back to center (I think the top-line center if I am not mistaken), so we will have to see how his season goes. Every reason to still be optimistic though.

There are a couple of youtube videos of him and you can see the skill he showed. He is still a raw prospect, but developing.

Hope that helps.